South Africa

[b4cz28]

I know we all talk about SA degrees on here, but how much longer will they be any good? They estimate that by 2012 that 2/3 of all White South Africans will have left the country. In a period of two years 855,000 left the country. Why I bring this up is they have left a huge vacuum in the education fields. Not trying to be a racist but with the past of SA most of the people who ran the country and the universities were white. I was just reading an article by a white African who left the country talking about the pending education crash that is about to happen. That coupled with many schools facing constant blackouts, could not be good. What does everyone else think? The country is falling apart and fast.

[Tireman 44444]

I am not worried.

[Ian Anderson]

There is an article in the Economist magazine that addresses education in SA
A special report on South Africa: Last in class | The Economist
Scroll down the article for comments on SA universities.

[b4cz28]

Wow! Last place!

I just read another art about brain drain in SA.

BBC NEWS | Africa | South Africa's brain drain dilemma

[Kizmet]

There is no question but that brain drain occurs. It occurs all over the world

Brain drain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's important to remember though that while the new, younger brains might emmigrate, those who taught them will stay behind and be available to teach you too.

[b4cz28]

I think the issue is that the country is falling apart and the people that do the teaching are flooding out as fast as they can. Every year SA appears to be getting worse. I 'm sure it happens all over, but I'm talking about South Africa. They broke the country for the worldcup, which set back plans to build more power plants to help stop the rolling blackouts.

[Lukeness]

Um, I wouldn't quite put it like that...
That black-outs have everything to do with corrupt administration and little to do with the world cup.
It also doesn't help when we dish out free electricity to other countries in Africa or sell it below cost to Zimbabwe while the lights go off in Cape Town.

As for the brain drain, there's quite a reversal taking place at the moment. Many of the casualties of the global economic meltdown have returned to SA after things got tight and others have come back because, well there just isn't anywhere else like here. You'll note that the brain drain article is 6 years old.

The education standards really are pathetic and do seem to be getting worse. But this really refers to the schools rather than universities. Basically because they use a government curriculum and every year lately they seem to be trying to dumb it down. They even have a new subject called 'life orientation' that I'm pretty sure should be handled before high school, or at home... This also makes it very difficult for the universities to maintain admission standards and they have to constantly update them as the standards change. It would not surprise me if they start using private school exams and the benchmark as they did in the past or start an entrance exam.

After reading that report I should also mention that schools have been open to all races since 1991. So current university drop-outs can hardly blame apartheid. Racism seems to be the excuse for everything in SA, especially any form of failure.

[BillDayson]

Originally Posted by b4cz28

They estimate that by 2012 that 2/3 of all White South Africans will have left the country.

Who is "they"? 2012 is only two years from now, so that prediction sounds rather alarmist.

In a period of two years 855,000 left the country.

My impression is that South Africa has a white population of about 5 million. So the assertion seems to be that something like 17% of South Africa's whites have left in just the space of 2 years. I find that difficult to believe.

Again, my impression from half the world away is that there is indeed a net outflow of whites from ZA, but I'm guessing that it's significantly smaller than that.

Where emigration might impact South African higher education most forcefully is with high-end scholars. These individuals can probably find employment pretty easily in European, Australian and North American universities and tech firms. The international-class stars among South Africa's professors are no doubt being actively recruited as we speak. That's the pull. If there's also a push at home, with wholesale changes in the South African university system making white professors' positions more difficult, then some of them will inevitably be moving on.

They will doubtless be replaced, but probably by people who aren't nearly as prominent in their fields as those who left. So the quality of South African research and scholarly life is likely to suffer.

But I'm not sure how far down the food chain this will extend. The international stars will doubtless be getting offers, but what about the obscure lecturers? Europe and the United States are facing economic difficulties of their own at the moment and there's probably not a great deal of academic hiring going on below the level of the big-name free-agents.

[b4cz28]

Originally Posted by BillDayson

Who is "they"? 2012 is only two years from now, so that prediction sounds rather alarmist.



My impression is that South Africa has a white population of about 5 million. So the assertion seems to be that something like 17% of South Africa's whites have left in just the space of 2 years. I find that difficult to believe.

Again, my impression from half the world away is that there is indeed a net outflow of whites from ZA, but I'm guessing that it's significantly smaller than that.

Where emigration might impact South African higher education most forcefully is with high-end scholars. These individuals can probably find employment pretty easily in European, Australian and North American universities and tech firms. The international-class stars among South Africa's professors are no doubt being actively recruited as we speak. That's the pull. If there's also a push at home, with wholesale changes in the South African university system making white professors' positions more difficult, then some of them will inevitably be moving on.

They will doubtless be replaced, but probably by people who aren't nearly as prominent in their fields as those who left. So the quality of South African research and scholarly life is likely to suffer.

But I'm not sure how far down the food chain this will extend. The international stars will doubtless be getting offers, but what about the obscure lecturers? Europe and the United States are facing economic difficulties of their own at the moment and there's probably not a great deal of academic hiring going on below the level of the big-name free-agents.

Thinks for your assumptions and speculations! The 855,000 was from a BBC report (2006/2007). Democracy Now? had the numbers from 1995-2005 at 850,000. The pace has picked since then. I don't know if it is true. My question is, is SA degree still worth it? It seems it is barely even a developed nation anymore. At this point they are on the same level as Botswana. They are even lower than some other African Nations.

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YouTube - New South Africa - Why the Exodus?

[Tireman 44444]

Again, I am not worried. I will take my chances with a PhD from UNISA.

[Lukeness]

Originally Posted by b4cz28

Thinks for your assumptions and speculations! The 855,000 was from a BBC report (2006/2007). Democracy Now? had the numbers from 1995-2005 at 850,000. The pace has picked since then. I don't know if it is true. My question is, is SA degree still worth it? It seems it is barely even a developed nation anymore. At this point they are on the same level as Botswana. They are even lower than some other African Nations.

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YouTube - New South Africa - Why the Exodus?

This post kind of reminds me of people who still expect to see lions and zebra in the middle of the city if they come to South Africa.
A single province in SA has a higher GDP than any other African country (except Egypt). South Africa is actually pretty developed... As I said in my previous post, a lot of expat South Africans are actually moving back after realising that the grass wasn't really greener. Our high-school education might be having major problems but by and large the credibility of our universities remains very much intact.

[cjzande]

I am finding this entire conversation fascinating. I have had minimal contact with folks from SA through homeschooling, but overall I know very little about the country in a modern-day way, as opposed to what we've studied of the history. Lukeness, your posts are reassuring and I do hope things are not as dire as some of these articles certainly make it sound!

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[SteveFoerster]

Originally Posted by Lukeness

This post kind of reminds me of people who still expect to see lions and zebra in the middle of the city if they come to South Africa. A single province in SA has a higher GDP than any other African country (except Egypt). South Africa is actually pretty developed... As I said in my previous post, a lot of expat South Africans are actually moving back after realising that the grass wasn't really greener. Our high-school education might be having major problems but by and large the credibility of our universities remains very much intact.

What's the matter with you?! How dare you let your personal experience get in the way of other people's misinformed alarmism!

-=Steve=-

[b4cz28]

So I guess the BBC and hundreds of news reports, articles and commentary about SA is a lies Steve? There is no power crisis?

Eskom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anglo's Coal, Platinum, Gem Production Cut by Power (Update3) - Bloomberg

Solidarity

South africa is falling apart | Fromtheold

Eskom price hike 'will lead to more illegal connections' - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source

No companies had to shut down for the world cup due to lack of power, that's being alarmist I guess.

Eskom price hike 'will lead to more illegal connections' - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source

Eskom: Blackouts on the cards: Fin24: Economy

The UN is lying as well about the GDI showing them ranked below or at the same level as other African nations?

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about the crumbling education system, Lies to I guess?

South Africa's Education System Crumbling | Education | English

School Safety Partners - South Africa's education system crumbling

The Legal Resources Centre - 2010 05 22 'South Africa's Education System Crumbling', Voice of America News

White people are not fleeing the country as fast as they can.

Whites planning mass exodus from South Africa? | National Policy Institute

Entire young white South African generation has left the country

One of the worst rape, murder and crime rate in the world....no..no..no...I'm being an alarmist..sorry!

Crime in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jek2839]

Duplicate post....

[b4cz28]

Originally Posted by Lukeness

This post kind of reminds me of people who still expect to see lions and zebra in the middle of the city if they come to South Africa.
A single province in SA has a higher GDP than any other African country (except Egypt). South Africa is actually pretty developed... As I said in my previous post, a lot of expat South Africans are actually moving back after realising that the grass wasn't really greener. Our high-school education might be having major problems but by and large the credibility of our universities remains very much intact.

I know you live there, but the Newsweek’s SA chief says otherwise.

South Africa's New White Flight - Newsweek

[jek2839]

Originally Posted by SteveFoerster

What's the matter with you?! How dare you let your personal experience get in the way of other people's misinformed alarmism!

-=Steve=-

Steve, well said!

[b4cz28]

Originally Posted by jek2839

Steve, well said!!

I provide sources to back me up, Steve provides conjecture, yet you cheer him on?

[jek2839]

Originally Posted by b4cz28

I provide sources to back me up, Steve provides conjecture, yet you cheer him on?

Relax Newbe (since April 2010),

Yes, I cheered Steve on. And??

[b4cz28]

I am relaxed...200 post count