AllLearn.org

[Gert Potgieter]

AllLearn.org proves rare online success.

[Charles]

Gert,

Thanks. I just enrolled in "Forum on Iraq", a free course from alllearn.org.

"Forum Description
Does Saddam Hussein pose a grave and immediate threat to the United States and its allies? Could the U.S. legally and diplomatically launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, particularly if the mission lacks the support of the United Nations? What precedent would a unilateral strike set for the future of diplomacy and the conduct of warfare? Beyond that, would an American-led strike bolster American counterterrorism efforts, or have the unintended effect of jeopardizing these efforts and potentially destabilize an already unstable Middle East? And what would Iraq look like in the years following an invasion? Would Iraq become a modern democracy built with U.S. financial assistance, or something closer to today's Afghanistan?

These important questions and more will be addressed by six distinguished faculty members from Oxford, Stanford, and Yale in a unique online forum. Each panelist will address different aspects of the Iraq crisis in a short video lecture, provide suggested readings, and respond to questions and comments in an online discussion following his presentation. Meant to inform the larger public debate, AllLearn's forum will help participants critically assess arguments made by politicians, pundits and journalists and ultimately draw informed conclusions, whether pro or con, about U.S. military action in Iraq.

This forum will take place from October 29 through November 1 and will be offered at no cost to our audience. Space is limited, so enroll today!"

https://www.alllearn.org/

[Charles]

Anyone else participating in the the Conversations on Iraq Forum? The Syllabus was posted today. The first two of six lectures will be posted tomorrow:

Charles Hill: "The Case for Military Intervention in Iraq."
Joel Beinin: "The Case against Military Intervention in Iraq."

"Background Reading
There are no required readings for this Forum. However, the faculty members and AllLearn have compiled a topical list of books and online resources that you may find helpful for understanding the issues raised by our speakers".


"About Your Moderator
Jamie Morin currently holds the National Fellowship in Public Affairs and Contemporary History from the Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia. He received his M.A. and M.Phil. degrees from Yale University, and is currently completing a doctoral dissertation on the post-Cold War politics of American defense policy. Prior to his studies at Yale, he received a M.Sc. in public administration and public policy from the London School of Economics, worked at the Department of Defense with the civilian bureau responsible for reviewing war plans and budgetary projections, and consulted to various international aid donor agencies on economic development issues".

www.alllearn.org

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[John Bear]

What a fine-sounding course, Charles. Thanks for posting the information.

Three different friends, none from anywhere near Berkeley, have recently eMailed me the site from which one can (and one did) download a fine bumper sticker or window sign:
Regime Change Begins At Home. Vote.

(http://www.moveonpac.org)

[uncle janko]

Sounds great. Thanks, Gert & Charles.

[Charles]

This forum was an excellent presentation. It was well balanced. Several points of view were discussed in detail. I would have liked a longer program. Not that I would know, but this forum represented what I would expect from a partnership of Oxford, Stanford and Yale universities.

There was an after forum poll. Results are now posted on the alllearn website.

"Five hundred eighty-six participants responded to the survey. Eighty-six percent opposed the U.S. taking unilateral military action against Iraq and 73% felt that such action would hurt the war on terrorism."

http://www.alllearn.org/iraq/poll/results.html

[Dennis Ruhl]

Skip the forum; here are the answers.

Legality in war - Who cares?

Will war destabilize the region - And there is stability now.

Modern democracy - Dream on.

[Myoptimism]

Originally posted by Charles
This forum was an excellent presentation. It was well balanced. Several points of view were discussed in detail. I would have liked a longer program. Not that I would know, but this forum represented what I would expect from a partnership of Oxford, Stanford and Yale universities.

There was an after forum poll. Results are now posted on the alllearn website.

"Five hundred eighty-six participants responded to the survey. Eighty-six percent opposed the U.S. taking unilateral military action against Iraq and 73% felt that such action would hurt the war on terrorism."

http://www.alllearn.org/iraq/poll/results.html

I am not necessarily opposed to the results, however; A poll taken after an educational seminar is flawed. Regardless of how many points of view are discussed, there is going to be a natural bias in the instruction; No man sits on a fence. This would be heightened in the above scenario by the prestige of the instructors and/or affiliated schools.

Tony

[Charles]

Tony,

I don't disagree with you. The various lecturers may have influenced poll results, but I don't think minds are easily changed on this type of issue. This poll might have been more interesting if a "before" poll were also conducted. I doubt that there would have been any significant difference.

Poll or no poll, the forum was worth while, informative, and thought provoking.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Originally posted by Dennis Ruhl
Skip the forum; here are the answers.

Legality in war - Who cares?

Will war destabilize the region - And there is stability now.

Modern democracy - Dream on.

To expand:

If a countries national interest dictates war, then war it be. Legalities are for those that lose. Nuremberg was not applied to the victors. UN approval while desirable is not necessary.

Dictators thrive on conflict. Their stability comes from the threat of instability. Only they are strong enough to protect the country from evil foreign forces. Cuba has long argued that the US trade embargo has hurt them, when they, in fact, can trade with the rest of the world. The economic inertia inherent in a communist dictatorship is not to blame. It's those foreign devils.


There are no modern democracies in the region (other than Israel). In the culture, people tend to rally around strong leaders, which a democracy avoids creating. Afghanistan is hardly a democracy yet. The test will come when the local leadership no longer has a reliance on armed forces from democratic countries.

[Myoptimism]

Originally posted by Charles
Tony,

*clip*

Poll or no poll, the forum was worth while, informative, and thought provoking.

I am sure it was. I thought about signing up for it myself, even though I do not have a lot of free time. I finally decided against it, and I am still second guessing myself.

Tony

[Myoptimism]

Originally posted by Dennis Ruhl

*clip*

To expand:

If a countries national interest dictates war, then war it be. Legalities are for those that lose. Nuremberg was not applied to the victors. UN approval while desirable is not necessary.

Unfortunately, you are correct. I would like to add that it isn't necessary that aggression be in the country's national interest. It is only necessary to persuade enough people (perhaps only the majority of the bodies of congress), that it is in the best interest of the country. The truth, whatever it is, can be forgotten in times of passion.

Tony

[Charles]

I've just enrolled in part two of the Conversations on Iraq forum. The October forum was excellent. Unfortunately this one is not free, but I did get the alumni price $30.00 vice $49.00 since I participated in the last one. Well worth the money, if the presentations are as good as last time.


"Forum Description
In October 2002, AllLearn held a unique online forum attended by more than 5,000 students that focused on the emerging crisis in Iraq. Six months later, much has obviously changed. As of March 19th, the crisis has moved from a diplomatic phase to a military phase, from the halls of the United Nations to the battlefield of Iraq—and not without sparking controversy and setting important precedents for the international community. With the Iraq crisis taking this new turn, AllLearn will hold a new forum—"Conversations on Iraq: Where We Stand Now"—that will assess the road we have traveled and where it may take us in the months to come.

From April 8 through April 10, AllLearn will assemble six distinguished panelists from Oxford, Stanford, and Yale Universities who will offer commentary on different aspects of the war, in part by authoring succinct position papers specifically for this forum and in part by participating in a series of online chats. Through these online chats, students will have the rare opportunity to speak directly with a panel of experts, raise topics of personal interest and concern, and help shape the overall direction and tenor of this important dialogue.


Forum Activities

Forum activities include:
Reading short position papers authored by our panelists.

Participating in scheduled real-time chats with panelists. Chats will be held each day of the forum from 9:00 AM to 10:30 AM in California (PDT), 12:00 PM to 1:30 PM in New York (EDT), and 5:00 PM to 6:30 PM in London (BST). Each chat with a faculty member will last 45 minutes. See schedule below.

Reviewing transcripts of chat sessions: if you have problems attending a particular chat, transcripts will be posted immediately after each chat.

Debating ideas with other students on our ongoing moderated discussion boards.

Perusing lists of recommended readings and online resources.





Forum Outline

April 8: "Where Do We Go From Here?: Two Critics' Views on the War and Its Aftermath"
Chat 1: The Rt. Revd. Richard Harries, Bishop of Oxford

Chat 2: Joel Beinin, Stanford University

April 9: "The Coming Reconstruction: The U.S., Iraq, and the International Community"
Chat 1: Jim Noyes, Hoover Institution

Chat 2: Charles Hill, Yale University

April 10: "The War in Iraq and the Changing Face of the Middle East"
Chat 1: Ahmad Dallal, Stanford University

Chat 2: Robert Mabro, University of Oxford





Faculty Profile
Joel Beinin received his Ph.D. from the University of Michigan in 1982 and has taught Middle Eastern history at Stanford University since 1983. He has been studying the Arab-Israeli conflict for 35 years and has lived for extended periods in both Egypt and Israel. His recent books include Political Islam: Essays from Middle East Report (University of California Press, 1997, co-edited with Joe Stork) and Workers and Peasants in the Modern Middle East (Cambridge University Press 2001). He is currently serving as the president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America.

Ahmad Dallal is associate professor of Middle Eastern history at Stanford University. Educated at the University of Beirut (B.E.) and Columbia University (Ph.D.), Professor Dallal has edited a forthcoming anthology, Islam in the Modern World, to be published in Arabic, English, and French. His other works have focused on medieval Islamic history and the impact of the Enlightenment on Islamic thought.

The Rt. Revd. Richard Harries has been Bishop of Oxford since 1987. Previously, he was Dean of King's College, London. He has been a parish priest and a lecturer in Christian Doctrine and Ethics. He is a Fellow of King's College, London, and an Honorary Doctor of Divinity of the University of London. The Bishop has written 18 books including Art and the Beauty of God (Mowbrays, 1993), which was chosen as a book of the year by Anthony Burgess in The Observer. In 1996 he was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. He has contributed to a wide variety of national newspapers and journals.

Charles Hill is diplomat in residence and lecturer in international studies at Yale University. He is also a research fellow at the Hoover Institution. In 1983, Hill was appointed chief of staff of the State Department, after serving as deputy assistant secretary for the Middle East. Hill was executive aide to former U.S. Secretary of State George P. Shultz (1985–89) and served as special consultant on policy to the Secretary-General of the United Nations from 1992 to 1996. Hill is currently working with Dr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali on a book to be published by Random House on the United States and the United Nations in the post–Cold War period. Their collaboration has already produced Egypt’s Road to Jerusalem, a memoir of how the Middle East peace process began.

Robert Mabro is a Fellow of St Antony's College, senior research officer in the economics of the Middle East at Oxford University, and lay director on the board of the International Petroleum Exchange (IPE) in London. He is also the director of the Oxford Energy Seminar and secretary of the Oxford Energy Policy Club. He is the co-author, with Paul Horsnell of "Oil Markets and Prices: The Brent Market and the Formation of World Oil Prices" and, most recently, the OIES paper "The Oil Price Crisis of 1998."

James H. Noyes is a research fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution. He is an expert in Middle East affairs and is currently researching U.S. foreign policy toward the Arab-Israeli conflict and Persian Gulf security policy. Noyes's recent work includes an assessment of threats to U.S. security interests in Southwest Asia over the next fifteen years, prepared at the invitation of the U.S. Army's Strategic Studies Institute and presented in June 2001; and an essay in the quarterly journal Middle East Policy, June 2000, entitled "Fallacies, Smoke, and Pipe Dreams: Forcing Change in Iran and Iraq." Noyes received his B.A. from Yale University in 1950 and his M.A. in political science from the University of California at Berkeley in 1954.



Moderator Profile
The discussions and question-and-answer sessions will be moderated by Mazyar Lotfalian. He will coordinate the overall forum experience.

Mazyar Lotfalian (Ph.D., Rice University; B.A., University of California at Berkeley) is an anthropologist. Previously a visiting scholar at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and a post-doctoral fellow at Harvard in the Middle East Center, he has taught at numerous institutions, including Rice University, MIT, Emerson College, and the New School University. He moderated Iraq forum for AllLearn in the fall of 2002. In the academic year 2003-04, he will be a post-doctoral fellow at the Center for Religion and Media at New York University. Dr. Lotfalian has conducted research on Muslim scientists and engineers in Turkey, Malaysia, and the United States. He also travels extensively in the Muslim world, including Iran, where he was born and raised. His forthcoming book, entitled "Technoscientific Identities: Muslims and the Culture of Curiosity," is an account of the effect of the Islamic resurgence on understanding what science and technology are in the modern world. His earlier work includes studies of online communities and he has maintained an interest in distance learning and online interaction. He has published widely in academic volumes and journals such as the Late Editions series (University of Chicago Press) and such journals as Ethos and Cultural Dynamics."

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[Charles]

Chat with Professor Beinin

mazyar
Hi everyone, I am moderating the panel. I am waiting for Revd. Harries.
mazyar
is he on?
mazyar
while we are waiting here for Revd. Harries, please go ahead and send your questions to me.
mazyar
Revd. Harries was on earlier, he is logging on from the house of lords.
mazyar
We will wait a bit, he might have been called for a vote.
mazyar
Lets start with Professor Beinin
mazyar
would that be ok, Professor Beinin?
Joel Beinin
Yes. fine.
mazyar
OK let me ask the first question.
mazyar
Professor Beinin, as the moderator of this board, let me ask the first question: Do you see any substance at all in Bush and Blair's position of getting rid of Saddam or eliminating the weapons of mass destruction. Or is this just a pretext for maintaining the Western hegemony?
mazyar
Please send your questions to Professor Beinin to me.
Joel Beinin
Disarming Iraq is a legitimate objective in the interests of the international community. However, the international community, through the UN Security Council opposed going to war to accomplish this objective...
Stroth
Professor- you seem to believe deeply that Pres. Bush if the Devil himself! Is this true, and if so, why?
Joel Beinin
Removing Saddam Hussein from power, despicable and repressive as the regime is, is much more questionable as a legitimate objective..
Peter Desjardins
Phase 1 is already mostly over. It is now a matter of days, or at most weeks, before one can say that the military operation has succeeded, and the regime of Saddam Hussein overthrown. What now? It appears, to the distress of some, that the US Pentagon will continue to control the agenda on the ground, and to install its own version of Viceroy and constables in Iraq, giving way at their convenience to a new administration of Iraqis. This will involve only token UN involvement, and only token representation from other countries outside the coalition. The diplomats continue to be relegated to a secondary role, including the US State FDepartment. What is the prospect that this will indeed happen? And if so, that it will produce the desired result down the road?
Joel Beinin
No. I never said or implied anything about Pres. Bush and the devil. He's the Christian fundamentalist who traffics in such images, not me.
Joel Beinin
Peter's remark highlights what was always a major problem...
ingrid uys
May I ask Prof Beinin if he thinks war is the answer to disarmament, in general, or whether he feels the international community adequately pursued the routes of diplomacy?
Joel Beinin
There was never any doubt that the US could defeat Iraq militarily
John A. Coleman
Peter.The UN is not capable of making difficult decisions. They couldn't handle a complex role in Iraq for some period of time.
Joel Beinin
The main problem was always what to do after US forces have won militarily. The Bush administration does not seem unified on a plan, beyond marginalizing the UN. The US has no credibility in the Arab world. This will not make it easy
Ricardo Oxenford
What if no weaponsof mass destruction are found? Is this why we are going for a "change of regime objective?
Joel Beinin
John, The reason that the UN can't make difficult decisions is the history of the paralysis of the Cold War. Since then it has been mainly US vetoes in tthe Security Council over Israel and Palestine that have obstructed UN decision making, Bosnia is of course, a different matter
Peter Desjardins
John, indeed. 12 years with no resolution. The diplomacy was always sticky at best; and so many of those involved has competing interests, many of which served well the Iraqi prevarication.
Stroth
John- and yet the UN is, I suppose, the "lawful authority" that Prof. Beinin speaks of.
Joel Beinin
Ricardo: The regime change objective was articulated by Wolfowitz, Perle, and the other Iraq war hawks in the early to mid-1990s. That is the real agenda
La Verne Elliott
What is your proof that the Bush administration does not seem unified on a post-war plan?
Joel Beinin
The proof is that different members of the administration speak about the role of the UN and the international community differently and also that the Iraqi opposition fostered by Washington, the Iraqi National Council, was unhappy with the role assigned to it on the eve of the war
ingrid uys
As far as I can make out the UN is acting strictly within its mandate. If the USand UK wish to pursue a different path the inability of the UN to act on 'their' plans surely lies with these countries. There should have been a review of the UN Charter before commiting to the doctrine of preemptive military action surely?
Stroth
Sir, I cannot believe that Wolfowitz determines USA policy! Bush is not that weak. Nevertheless, regime change certainly appears necessary, anad if the UN can't make it happen, then what do we do - cross our fingers?
Peter Desjardins
I believe that regime change has always been the objective. However, to gain mainstream support in the US, it was marketed as eliminating the risk of WMD, and eliminating the demonized Saddam Hussein, the latter not a difficult task.
Joel Beinin
No single individual determines US policy. It's not a question of the weakness or the intelligence of the president, though there is room to debate on this matter. The fact is that it is the policy advocated by Wolfowitz and Perle for nearly a decade that is now being implemented
John A. Coleman
Prof Beinen. The Middle East is a dsiaster waiting to happen. How do you start the change proscess.
ingrid uys
Stroth assumes it is the responsibility of the US to engage in 'regime change' in any country it chooses. Who gave the US that right?
Joel Beinin
Positive change can't be instituted by an armed invasion carried out by a country that has no credibility in the region
John A. Coleman
Ingrid. Your making a big assumption.
Charles Fout
Professor Beinin, The United States and the UK took action. I do not believe the UN has the right to demand the leadership role in Iraq. I believe the US has earned the right to set the course for the new Iraq.
Corinne Whitaker
It is not only regime change. There is an assumption that the new regime will be acceptable to us, politically and philosophically.
Joel Beinin
If the US wanted to act positively one big thing it could have done - a long time ago - would be to have adopted an even-handed policy on Israel and Palestine
Joel Beinin
this is the single biggest irritant to US-Arab relations
John A. Coleman
Prof Beinen. How do you start positive change?In the Middle East, its only in Iran that we see some progress.
La Verne Elliott
Positive change can be instituted by an armed invasion...consider Japan after WW2. What is your point of view re this?
Joel Beinin
Charles, In other words, you believe that might makes right. That is the way it has always gone in the world. The question is whether there is a possibility to do better than that now
James Skelly
I believe that Shiites composes the majority of the Iraqi population. will post war leadership come from that community?
Stroth
Ingrid- we have that right because Saddam has stated his determination to defeat us, and because hew is a threat to us aas demonstrated by Sept. 11. Not that he was the mastermind behind that, but contributed to making it possible while keeping his reputation squeaky clean.
Joel Beinin
One big difference in Japan was that the countries Japan had conquered did welcome the US as a liberator. That is not happening in Iraq
Peter Desjardins
John, I don't agree with your "disaster waiting to happen" statement. I live in Dubai, AUE (arguably the nicest place out here), but I travel to all the Gulf countries, and the pace of change is rapid and positive. But there uis still a long way to go. The "wild card" is of course Saudi Arabia, with terrible demographics, a Ruling Family asleep at the switch, and little investment in public education or infrastructure. That "ship of state" will not be turned on a dime. But the US is progressively ring-fencing it; and all the peripheral countries have made their own security arrangements with the US.
John A. Coleman
How do know what the Iraqui public reaction will be?
Joel Beinin
There is NO connection between Iraq and September 11. Almost half of the American people believe this, and the president insuinuates it continuously, but there is no evidence
Peter Desjardins
James, good question. The most sensible arguments I have seen argue for a "loose federation," with considerable regional autonomy for the former Ottoman privinces of Mosul, Baghdad, and Basra.
ingrid uys

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[Charles]

Stroth, I think you need to do some more homework regarding the reasons for this war. Iraq had nothing to do with Sept 11. he is quite simply a tyrannical leader - but then there are many out there who we should get rid of then. It would take a life time...
Joel Beinin
Peter, What makes you think any such thing is in the cards
Stroth
Sir- I do agree that we have not been objective in the Israeli-Palestinian situation, and cannot figure out why. Can you?
Joel Beinin
Yes. It serves American power to be allied with Israel. That was true during the cold war and it continued to be true afterwards. There are many cultural factors that play a role as well -- evangelical Protestantism, western guilty over failing to save Jews from the Holocaust, etc.
Charles Fout
I am not saying that might makes right. However, for the French, Russians and Chinese to demand the leadership roll, now, after the UN sat on its hands for 12 years is outrageous.
Peter Desjardins
Prof Beinin, "wishful thinking"? Such an arrangement has worked well herei n the UAE since 1972. And the Kurds have done well over the past fews years with their relative autonomy, enforced by the US no-fly zone.
Joel Beinin
The UN did not sit on its hands for 12 years
Corinne Whitaker
For me one of the big questions regards our staying power, our ability to respect a different culture, and to eschew the black and white evil vs. good way of describing others. We are not the most subtle of thinkers nor the most patient of negotiators.
Joel Beinin
The US forced the UN to keep the sanctions in place for many years after they had obviously failed as a policy instrument
Joel Beinin
Then the US tried to foil UN mediation on the crisis over inspections of the persidential palaces in 1998
Joel Beinin
Then the US ordered the UNSCOM inspectors out of Irasq in December 1998 to make way for four days of bombing
Joel Beinin
Then there were no inspections in Iraq for four years
John A. Coleman
The UN has past many resolutions concerning Iraq over the last 12 years and enforced none of them.
ingrid uys
Surely Prof sanctions is also a way of controlling states....
Stroth
Sir- I still don't understand how USA power is served by being allied with Israel - especially not Sharon!
Joel Beinin
So I would conclude that the US thwarted the UN and insisted on an overly punitive sanctions regime that did not accomplish its purpose
Joel Beinin
How much has the US lost in the way of access to oil because of the alliance with Sharon. That's the main interest in the region
Peter Desjardins
There was a brief period of "even-handed" US policy towards Israel and Palestine, in the immediate aftermath of the first Gulf War, when Yitzak Shamir tried to go around Pres Bush 41 directly to the US Congress, for the US loan guarantees of $10 billion, to pay for resettlement of Sovier-era Jews in Israel. That failed, and we had the Madrid conference. However, Bush lost to Clinton, and Shamir was replaced by Netinyahu, neither of whom respected prior commitments. Avi Shlaim has documented this in detail.
Joel Beinin
Peter, Yes. You are sort of right about that
John A. Coleman
Prof.Do you really believe that if Islral didn't exist or that the Palestinians had made peace, that Iraq and the Middle East would be very different?
Stroth
Corrine- you have just justified Pres. Bush's "Cowboy" reputation. To which I agree - and I like it. Diplomacy a;lways takes sooo long to make anything happen, and Dubya senses that the old way of diplomacy is a big problem.
Peter Desjardins
Please correct the "sort of." I'd like to be clearer in my own understanding. But of course that may be beyond the scope of this particular forum.
Joel Beinin
But I'm not sure I would call the late Bush I era one of even handedness. After all, the Israelis were able to veto the composition of the Palestinian delegation - eliminating PLO members. That meant that at Madrid and in tghe 11 rounds of negotiations afterwards, the Israelis were talking to the wrong people. When they wanted to get real, they had to get around the process set up by the US
Diane Galloway
Prof. Beinin, in your position paper you talk about the "failures of US to convice the UN Security Council,and in your suggested reading the essay by Tony Judt he mentions the "tragedy of American leaders eroding the foundations of the international system that the US helped to create." How is it our failure that the economic interests of France and Germany caused the UN Security council to self-destruct?
Joel Beinin
Israel does exist and is quite strong, There is no use engaging in what if speculation. I do believe the Middle East would be a different sort of place if there had been an Israeli-Palestinian peace, or even if the US were able to demonstrate that it had tried very hard to bring one about
ingrid uys
Israel is the only non-Muslim state surrounded by many Muslim states in the Middle East. This suggests it is particularly vulnerable in the region. It has no interest in giving away what precious land it owns to the Palestinians. Given this I wonder how peace will ever be achieved now that the US has entered the region?
Peter Desjardins
Thanks for that clarification. But won't it always be so? The Israelis seem to be able to dictate who their Palestinian interlocutors will be; but the contrary is certainly not possible.
Joel Beinin
Diane: Every country has economic interests and acts on them in international affairs -- even the US
Joel Beinin
The trick of international diplomacy is to try to bring those interests under the control of international law. That is what the US thwarted
Ricardo Oxenford
One big problem Arabs have is they lack the lobby power in the US that Israelis have. Israelis have, in general, western heritage. Westerners usually don't understand Arabs, who have difficulty in attracting sympathy.There is a great culturalbarrier which does not exist with Israelis, I think.
Farhang Jahanpour
Diane: It seems most Americans are not aware that it was not just France and Germany that opposed war on Iraq. Russia and China also said they would oppose it, and US could not win any of the six undecided countries. So it was four against 11.
Joel Beinin
I don't know how Arab-Israeli peace will be achieved, though many people agree on what its contents should be. I don't think the Israel lobby is the main explanation for US policy
Stroth
Ricardo- I don't feel a great cultural affinity for Israel! They do appear to have grossly magnified influence in Congress, and that sets me against them!
James Skelly
Ingrid I agree all parties want beach property and are not willing to share.

[Charles]

Peter Desjardins
Ingrid, "land it owns" is an interesting concept. A Palestinian researcher at Harvard did some work looking at the land titles in Jerusalem and environs, and was abel to document that over 90% of the land belonged to Arabs. But by hook and by crook, much of it now belongs to Israeli Jews. People left under duress (or for other reasons), and their property changed title.
Joel Beinin
Actually, it is state and parastatal agencies that own over 92% of the land in Israel
Tina Greene
Joel, some conspiracy theorists are saying that the US is interested not in democracy but in assuring the continued destabilization of the Middle East and that this policy can be traced back to George Bush's Yale days. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
Peter Desjardins
But what about the WEst Bank, and East Jerusalem?
Farhang Jahanpour
James: There was a proposal for sharing land between Israelis and Palestinians. That was the basis of the Oslo Accord and Peace Process. That was agreed by Palestinians, but rejected first by Netanyahu and later by Sharon. We know what happened to Rabin who was prepared to accept it.
Joel Beinin
I don't generally like conspiracy theories. I do believe that many in the Bush administration see this war as the first of several. That has been said publically by Douglas Feith in a recent visit to Israel
Stroth
Sir- I feel that Diane was right; It is the French and German and Russian economic interests that set them against us. Anyway- so we did help to create the UN; but that was decades ago. Times change!
Ricardo Oxenford
Stroth - I mean cultural affinity has led to high levels of influence.
mazyar
Lets focus on Iraq more that Israel.
Joel Beinin
So we can use the UN when we like and ignore it when we don't. That is the history of great powers. Again, the question is whether we can do better. And who is "us"? Do you own stock in Haliburton or Bechtel or any of the corporations likely to benefit directly from the war? I don't.
ingrid uys
There is a theory going around that the Europeans and the Russians were trying to get OPEC to link the oil to the euro rather than the dollar. This of course would have caused enormous harm to the American economy. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
mazyar
Professor Beinin we have 3 more minute.
Joel Beinin
That has been one of the issues discussed and is one of the "deep background" factors in the war
Duncan Cox
It appears that even the limited success of inspections was due to the threat of military action. If the threat were seen to be hollow, why would Hussein allow meaningful inspections in the future?
Tina Greene
Forgive my ignorance. Who is Douglas Fieth and how do I find his public comments?
Peter Desjardins
This should not be about which corporation benefits from a given contract. They should be hired for their expertise in getting a job done. Iraq will need massive reconstruction of its infrastructure, especially to get crude oil production back up to snuff. If Halliburton is the best to participate in some of that, then so be it. The best for the wire-line work will be Schlumberger, a French-American corporation. Should they be excluded because of their Frnech shareholding? I hope not!
Joel Beinin
There is no reason that inspections coupled to the threat of force could not have continued for some time. At the very worst this would have avoided a war and perhaps enabled a partial removal of the sanctions regime - something the Bush administration did not want
Joel Beinin
Douglas Feith is Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Planning
Dan Colman
Here is a link to Feith's writings. http://www.defenselink.mil/policy/speech/feb_11_03.html
mazyar
our time is up.
mazyar
we have to move to our chats with Revd. Harries.

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[Charles]

Chat with Bishop Richard Harries:

Stroth
Bishop Richard- are you on?
mazyar
Revd. Harries, let me ask the first question, as the moderator of this board: Could you please explain how the "just war" theory can relate to action? There seems to be a sense that historically theological arguments of just war have missed the point about the real causes of violence - for example communism vs. weapons of mass distraction argument in one of postings on the discussion board.
Bishop Richard
Yes, I am
Bishop Richard
I believe that the traditional criteria of the just war tradition are as relevant today as they have ever been.
Bishop Richard
whether people consciously appeal to them or not they will find themselves
Bishop Richard
making judgements that a particular conflict is just or unjust
Apr 8, 2003 1:00:08 PM
Bishop Richard
on the basis of considerations that the just war tradition formalised
Farhang Jahanpour
Rrevd. Harries. I enjoyed your papers and on the whole I agree with your definition of a just war, but don't you think that in the modern world when countries are supposed to live by the rule of law, one of the most important conditions of a just war is that it should receive UN and international sanction, something that the war on Iraq clearly did not.
Bishop Richard
Historians will quite rightly discuss the actual causes of a war.
Bishop Richard
But that is a different questions from trying to evaluate whether or not one side could be regarded as being morally justified inusing force.
Stroth
Bishop- how did they evolve? and who consented to them?
Charles Fout
Bishop- George Weigel (Moral Clarity in a Time of War) argues that many of today's religious leaders and public intellectuals have forgotten the fundamentals of the just war tradition. Does he have a case?
Bishop Richard
FJ: yes, I entirely agree with you. Although the present action could possibly be regarded as legal. For it to be moral it would need or have needed a fresh resolution of the UN security council. This is because the UN exists to achieve the maximum degree of international consensus and therefore international authority.
Bishop Richard
and it is this which one would look to in order to fulfil the first condition of the just war tradition about the lawful authority.
ingrid uys
Bishop Richard, hello. I too enjoyed your papers and would like your opinion on whether you think the moral justification for war is predicated on the motivations/reasons for a war? Politicians will always tell us one thing and usually the public are imagining other reasons. It is not simply about life or death because we all know the answer to this..
Bishop Richard
Charles: I believewhat George Weigel says is partly true
Bishop Richard
in that it is gov. which have to take responsibility in the end for the decisions that are being made.
Bishop Richard
The just war tradition sets out the criteria they must take into account and meet.
Bishop Richard
In a democratic society however, it is the responsibility of all of us
Bishop Richard
not just government to try to reach a judgement about whether the criteria have been met or not.
Farhang Jahanpour
Bishop, another aspect of a just war is proportionality. The terrible events of 9/11 were the acts of deranged terrorists, not of governments or countries. So far two countries have been devastated to make up for the feeling of hurt caused by those events.
Bishop Richard
Ingrid: I think you are right in suggesting that in many instances the real reasons for going to war are only tangentially related to the public justification of it.
Bishop Richard
Certainly, many of us here believe that the present conflict in Iraq was planned a long time ago by a coalition of interests in the us
Bishop Richard
and is related to the dream of a new American century.
Bishop Richard
From our point of view , there has been a dramatic change in the foreign policy of the US
Bishop Richard
and I believe that if this continues
Bishop Richard
with further conflicts after Irag
Bishop Richard
the world will be an increasingly dangerous place.
Peter Desjardins
Prof Jahanpour, "feeling of hurt"? 3,000 innocent civilians lost their lives. Should their familes have only a "feeling of hurt"?
Peter Desjardins
The UN is a consultative body, and a talking shop. It is not (yet at least) a world government. What government should be required to get UN approval before undertaking any number of actions, not just military?
Bishop Richard
Farhang: I entirely agree with what you say. The real threat is int. terrorism which will be with us for many years ahead.
Stroth
Bishop- your comment about Western policy being complicit for decades is certainly true of us in the USA also. But it seems to me that Pres. Bush is trying to change this. In fact, I think he's trying to change the entire paradyme of international relations - and I think he has a good point!
Bishop Richard
The conflict against Iraq is a misplaced objective because of course int. terrorism is very difficult to locate and root out
Bishop Richard
and needs a long and sophisticated struggle against it
Bishop Richard
as we have found in Northern Ireland.
Farhang Jahanpour
Bishop Richard, another issue that must be borne in mind is that in the modern world with the terrible weapons of mass destruction, especially nuclear weapons, the whole concept of a just war needs to be reexamined, because the use of such weapons is out of proportion to any just cause. In the modern world, war is obsolete.
Bishop Richard
Peter: I believe that the UN is more than a talking shop.
Bishop Richard
It is a significant achievement. Of course, from one point of view it is a forum for the playing out of national interests, but through the interplay of these national interests it is possible to evolve a policy
Peter Desjardins
A million innocent civilians slaughtered in Rwanda, and they kept on talking.
Bishop Richard
which is international in scope and not simply the expression of one national interest.
Jacqueline Yau
Bishop Richard, you mentioned in one of your position papers that "none of the factors which made military success possible in Afghanistan seem to be present in Iraq." What were those factors?
Bishop Richard
Jacqueline Yau: In Afghanistan, there were very significant opposition forces on the ground
Bishop Richard
and the US acted to support them.
Bishop Richard
As we have seen in Iraq, because of the ruthless despotism of Saddam Hussein and because of the failure of the West
Bishop Richard
to support uprising after the first gulf war
Bishop Richard
the Kurds and the Shias have not been able
Bishop Richard
to act as significant opposition forces
Bishop Richard
with the exception of course of the Kurds in the North
Bishop Richard
who were in a "Saddam-Hussein-free-zone" and who have been working with the coalition.
Farhang Jahanpour
Peter, I totally understand what you say and agree that the word hurt is not strong enough to describe the events of 9/11, but it is important to remember that events have precedents and a history. 9/11 did not come out of the blue. Many people in the Middle East feel deeply hurt as the result of the massacre of many civilians in the first Gulf War, the devastation of Afghanistan during the proxy war between US and former Soviet Union and the events in the Middle East. So they feel that they have a point too.
Bishop Richard
But here, in contrast to Afghanistan the coalition has been the all dominant player, not jus a backup force with enormous firepower.
ingrid uys
I am interested to know why nobody seems interested in entitling the Kurds to their own nation-state. They are more in numbers than the Palestinians?
Bishop Richard
that their governments feel because of hte Kurds
Bishop Richard
because of the sense of threat in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq
Bishop Richard
I think hte best we can hope for at the moment
Bishop Richard
is a relatively autonomous area in Iraq for the Kurds
Bishop Richard
building on what they have had since the Gulf War.
Bishop Richard
The US and British governments have made solemn promises
Bishop Richard
to Iran and Turkey that Iraq will retain its present borders
Bishop Richard
and will not be broken up or expanded in order to create a separate Kurdish state.
Bishop Richard
Certainly, the Kurds have lost out more than any other people than WWI.
Farhang Jahanpour
Ingrid, the Kurds were on several occasions promised independence. There are just over four millions of Kurds in Iran, about the same number in Iraq and over ten million in Turkey. Till recently the Kurds in Turkey could not even publish or teach in their own languages, and Turkey is a friend of the West so must not be upset.

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[Charles]

Peter Desjardins
Ingrid, "Kurdistan" spreads over four countries in the region. In addition to northern Iraq, there are significant Kurdish communities in Turkey, Iran, and Syria. What territory would the nation-state emcompass?
Stroth
Ingrid- it seems to me there are a great many regions of the world where nations are composed of ethnics who hate each other! In the old USSR bloc, the police kept them "at peace" with one another. But that power is gone, and these hatreds are breaking out all over. What is the solution to this?
Charles Fout
Farhang, to suggest the terrorist thugs of 9/11 have any kind of moral equivalence to the people in the government of the U.S. is ridiculous.
Dianne King
In your paper you state that you "believe that a power is at work making something better out of the mess we have made of things...." What is the "something better" or "some good" that you think might develop from our current political situation?
Ricardo Oxenford
Osama Bin Laden is a difficult moving target, whereas Saddam is (or was) a sitting duck. This war should not make us lose focus with who the real enemy is.
Bishop Richard
Dianne: Obviously, the main good which we look for to come out of this conflict
Bishop Richard
is a stable, just and flourishing Iraq, in which all its peoples
Stroth
Bishop- re: Diane's question, what is the "power"?
Bishop Richard
not least the Kurds and Shias can feel they have a stake.
Farhang Jahanpour
Charles, it is not the question of moral equivalence. I don't support terrorism and do not wish to justify their dreadful action. I am just trying to see that in their eyes they feel that they have a point. Nobody suggested to bomb a Christian country because of the activities of Timothy McVeigh. Terrorists are terrorists, pure and simple. The tragedy is that the activities of some deranged terrorists iks leading to a clash of civilizations.
Bishop Richard
My hope also is that with the threat of Iraq no longer existing
Bishop Richard
President Bush will put the same energy into the peace process between Israel and Palestine
Bishop Richard
than he has in this war
Bishop Richard
and that the Israeli people, feeling less threatened,
Charles Fout
Farhang, that is because there was no Christian country harboring Timothy McVeigh.
Bishop Richard
will be able to be more positive about the peace process - and that the Palestinians seeing the real possibility of peace by political means will totally isolate and disable those tempted by suicide bombing.
ingrid uys
Revd do you honestly believe that the US will implement the Israel-Palestine peace plan? The eight foot wall that is going up on the West Bank would suggest that the US has given Sharon the go ahead to resolve its own issues in its own way.
Bishop Richard
Stroth: For me the power is a divine power
Bishop Richard
who is ceaselessly at work inviting us to cooperate to bring something better out of the mess we make of things.
Bishop Richard
Ingrid: I find the situation in Israel/Palestine both tragic and depressing
Bishop Richard
From a human point of view I am not optimistic about Pres. Bush's political will to bring about peace but we have to keep hoping and working for a solution that one day will surely come about.
Stroth
Bishop- is the current Israeli-Palestinian situation the principal aggravating factor in the Arab world today?
Esther Goodman
Bishop, do you see a solution for Israel/Palest. that will work for the long-term, that could really result in peace between them?
Bishop Richard
Stroth: Yes, I do think that the Israeli/Palestinian situation is the biggest source of grievance in the Arab world today.
Bishop Richard
It is this grievance which Usama bin Laden plays on.
Farhang Jahanpour
Charles, I am sure that you know that initially Osama bin Laden was created, supported and armed by the United States. The Taleban also came to power with the support or at least acquiessence of the United States.
ingrid uys
Some believe that until that peace plan comes to fruition there will never really be peace in the Middle East? And I hate to say this I am not optimistic about the political will of Bush either.
Bishop Richard
Esther: Yes, I do believe peace is possible. There are many people in Israel today who are not happy about the policies of the Sharon government.
Stroth
Farhang- SURELY YOU ARE JOKING!! By WHOM supported and armed, specigically? Am I totally innocent?
Bishop Richard
And there are many Palestinians who look for a different kind of leader to Arafat. They do now a prime minister who is meant to have significant power. We will have to see what that makes possible.
Dan Colman
By the way, given all the interest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I should point out that Alllearn has a course dedicated to this issue: http://www.alllearn.org/course.jsp?C=60 I just figured I'd let you know...
ingrid uys
Let me play devils advocate here: but if it is true that the US is displaying its military might in such a way that it will diminish any thought on the part of the authoritarian regimes in the Middle East to stand up and take on the US how will it be possible for terrorism to 'blossom'?
Esther Goodman
Ingrid, it would seem to me that when one is as mighty as the US is, the only way to rebell successfully is through terrorism? What else is there?
Stroth
Is it not true that terrorism blosoms where the authority-in-place fails the people?
Dianne King
In your position paper you refer to "the need to back diplomacy by the threat of force. For the threat of force to be credible Saddam Hussein has to believe that force might be used. But if it came to using that force it would almost certainly precipitate the use of those very chemical and biological weapons which the threat was designed to avert." Do you forsee any resolution to this dilemma when dealing with any nation that possesses nuclear or other catastrophic weapons?
Cathy Brooks
Bishop Richard, your second alternative requires the threat of force. Aren't the French responsible for eliminating this alternative?
mazyar
we are beginning to wrap up. 3 more minutes.
Harald Braun
Dianne: The question you ask was very much to the fore durin gthe cold war.
Bishop Richard
Thosewho supporteda policy of nuclear deterrence believed that this threat of ultimate force would ensure that such force would never need to be used.
Bishop Richard
This resulted in a nuclear stale mate because forthe first time in history
Bishop Richard
it could not have been conceivably in the interest of either power to initiate hostilities.
mazyar
please be reminded that the chat log will be posted soon after the session ended.
Bishop Richard
The worry about the recent tension between India and Pakistan is that some spokesmen seem to suggest that nuclear weapons are weapons like other weapons.
Bishop Richard
They are not.
Bishop Richard
I believe that the cold war was a unique situation
Bishop Richard
and it is difficult to conceive in todays world of a scenario in which nuclear weapons could beused justly and proportionately.
Bishop Richard
That said I recognise that such weapons can have a stabilising effect perhaps preventing a major war using conventional weapons as has perhaps been the case between India and Pakistan.
mazyar
thanks very much for participation. the time is up.
Bishop Richard
Thank you everyone for your questions.
mazyar
thank you very much Bishop for your answers.
Bishop Richard
It has been good to be in discussion with you.
mazyar
please stop by tomorrow at the same time as today.
mazyar
and please continute talking on the discussion board.
mazyar
yes the chat log will be posted soon.

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[Dennis Ruhl]

Charles

Next time don't bother.

[Myoptimism]

Originally posted by Dennis Ruhl
Charles

Next time don't bother.

I disagree Dennis. I found it fascinating to read the opinions of the intellect. Obviously, I must disagree with almost everything. LOL.

Tony
I suppose I am an idiot so I will get used to it. There is an opening at the neighborhood BK if I am not mistaken.