Just a tad pissed off

[Jack Tracey]

OK, so it's the end of a long day at the end of a long week. We set record high temperatures here in Massachusetts all week and perhaps I'm just a bit on edge. With that as the context I'd like to make two complaints:
1) I'm very tired of the people who post messages that say, basically, this, "I want a non-residential PhD program that is really, really cheap, that is accredited, super-respected, that I can complete in very little time, with very little effort and will earn me a tenure track teaching position in an Ivy-League school. These people are dangerous. They should be tagged and carefully monitored. They are dangerous.
2) I am tired of people who present themselves on this forum asking questions that indicated strongly that they have NEVER done any research themselves. They haven't read any DL books, they haven't searched the web site archives, they haven't surfed university websites, they haven't done anything except to post a message on the forum that sounds a lot like #1.
I don't mind a newbie, I was a newbie once myself. I, however, do object to stupidity and laziness. Please try to be neither.
Jack
(who probably should have gone to bed ten minutes ago)

Sometimes people are amusing or naive when they say they want cheap, fast, and no work if possible because they have a busy lifestyle. That is when you tell them to get out the printer and use a certificate maker program and wait......for the sound of the resume time bomb preparing to go off. I agree with what someone else said which is that the reason many people don't print them is that they want a third party degree and hope to plead ignorant if they are ever caught.

North (who is also tired)

Originally posted by Jack Tracey:
OK, so it's the end of a long day at the end of a long week. We set record high temperatures here in Massachusetts all week and perhaps I'm just a bit on edge. With that as the context I'd like to make two complaints:
1) I'm very tired of the people who post messages that say, basically, this, "I want a non-residential PhD program that is really, really cheap, that is accredited, super-respected, that I can complete in very little time, with very little effort and will earn me a tenure track teaching position in an Ivy-League school. These people are dangerous. They should be tagged and carefully monitored. They are dangerous.
2) I am tired of people who present themselves on this forum asking questions that indicated strongly that they have NEVER done any research themselves. They haven't read any DL books, they haven't searched the web site archives, they haven't surfed university websites, they haven't done anything except to post a message on the forum that sounds a lot like #1.
I don't mind a newbie, I was a newbie once myself. I, however, do object to stupidity and laziness. Please try to be neither.
Jack
(who probably should have gone to bed ten minutes ago)

[Bruce]

Jack, I know it hit 98 in Boston today, but that was still about a 9 on the stress meter.

Seriously though, I can appreciate what you're saying. However, the world of DL can be very confusing, and we need to cut the newbies some slack, especially when it comes to undergrad degrees. People who want the fast, easy, and cheap doctorates should know better, but undergrad candidates likely need a lot of guidance, I know I sure did.

Bruce

[Rich Douglas]

Originally posted by Bruce:
Jack, I know it hit 98 in Boston today, but that was still about a 9 on the stress meter.

Seriously though, I can appreciate what you're saying. However, the world of DL can be very confusing, and we need to cut the newbies some slack, especially when it comes to undergrad degrees. People who want the fast, easy, and cheap doctorates should know better, but undergrad candidates likely need a lot of guidance, I know I sure did.

Bruce

I agree with everything said thus far. I want to add that I've had enough of people logging on anonymously, tossing about their supposed qualifications, then baiting others with "red herrings." I stay out of a great deal of the discussion because it is clear they're here just to argue. Jeez, the one-trick ponies WITH identities are enough.

Rich Douglas

Originally posted by Bruce:
People who want the fast, easy, and cheap doctorates should know better

People who have legitimate bachelor's and master's degrees, and then want a fast, easy, no sweat doctorate indeed DO KNOW better. I refer here to doctorates via places like T C&U, Northwestern International University, American College, ad nauseum, etc. How is it possible that one who has earned a legitimate master's degree, understands the rigor and discipline of higher education, can fall prey to a scam where one can earn a Ph.D. for $199 and a book report??? Something just ain't clicking here, guys!

Russell

[Lewchuk]

The problem is that you have two very different constituencies on this forum... two cities if you will...

City #1, high on the hill, are people who want the finest education available but cannot participate in a traditional program. They search around the globe for the most prestigious programs available which can be completely at a distance. They are concerned with quality, not accreditation. They wear their degrees proudly, as badges of excellence, testiment to their victory in the field of academic competition. They have no issue with traditional programs but merely desire to participate in them at a distance.

City #2, in the valley, are people who want the quickest and easiest education available. They are concerned with accreditation, not quality. They wear their degrees proudly because they have degrees like the people on the hill. They often ridicule traditional programs, for they often require effort.

Originally posted by Jack Tracey:
OK, so it's the end of a long day at the end of a long week. We set record high temperatures here in Massachusetts all week and perhaps I'm just a bit on edge. With that as the context I'd like to make two complaints:
1) I'm very tired of the people who post messages that say, basically, this, "I want a non-residential PhD program that is really, really cheap, that is accredited, super-respected, that I can complete in very little time, with very little effort and will earn me a tenure track teaching position in an Ivy-League school. These people are dangerous. They should be tagged and carefully monitored. They are dangerous.
2) I am tired of people who present themselves on this forum asking questions that indicated strongly that they have NEVER done any research themselves. They haven't read any DL books, they haven't searched the web site archives, they haven't surfed university websites, they haven't done anything except to post a message on the forum that sounds a lot like #1.
I don't mind a newbie, I was a newbie once myself. I, however, do object to stupidity and laziness. Please try to be neither.
Jack
(who probably should have gone to bed ten minutes ago)

[DaveHayden]

What an inaccurate, even selfserving, simplification. There are many diverse people here who have a wide range of needs and motivations. It seems some should take a closer look at their own belief foundations and take fewer quality traditional classes.

------------------
Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Lewchuk:
The problem is that you have two very different constituencies on this forum... two cities if you will...

City #1, high on the hill, are people who want the finest education available but cannot participate in a traditional program. They search around the globe for the most prestigious programs available which can be completely at a distance. They are concerned with quality, not accreditation. They wear their degrees proudly, as badges of excellence, testiment to their victory in the field of academic competition. They have no issue with traditional programs but merely desire to participate in them at a distance.

City #2, in the valley, are people who want the quickest and easiest education available. They are concerned with accreditation, not quality. They wear their degrees proudly because they have degrees like the people on the hill. They often ridicule traditional programs, for they often require effort.

I think that Lewchuk's "cities" one and two represent only a fraction of DL and of participants at degreeinfo. He seems interested largely in prestige heirarchies, in obtaining a "badge" that can contribute to graduates' "pride" (and simultaneosly allow them to put down others.) Perhaps you can call these cities the successful and unsuccessful poseurs.

But I would guess that most of us live in two other "cities":

City #3, working adults who need additional education in order to stay current in their field, to advance in their profession or to change careers. This is probably the megapolis among the "cities", with the largest population by far.

City #4, those like myself who are in DL for the love of studying what interests them. This is a small but rather choice community in my opinion. Lots of libraries, bookstores, performance spaces, galleries and cafes.

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Jack Tracey:
1) I'm very tired of the people who post messages that say, basically, this, "I want a non-residential PhD program that is really, really cheap, that is accredited, super-respected, that I can complete in very little time, with very little effort and will earn me a tenure track teaching position in an Ivy-League school. These people are dangerous. They should be tagged and carefully monitored.

I'd like all those things myself. Plus the Nobel to go along with them. And a beautiful babe girlfriend (but classy and sophisticated too), a billion dollars, a British stately home with aristocratic title to match, a private jet, an oceanliner sized yacht anchored in Monaco...

I think that what lots of people want (at least those who aren't trolls) is something that will transform their life.

[Jack Tracey]

Well, I've had a good nights sleep, a couple of decent meals and the temperature is back down to a livable 78 degrees. I'm mildly amused at my own rant and appreciate all the thoughtful responses. I'm usually more tolerant of these these things and will endeavor to be so in the future. Thanks,
Jack

[Lewchuk]

Your city #3 is actually a suburb within both cities #1 and #2. If you are a working adult but pursue the best opportunities to advance your knowledge, to be leading in your field or to pursue the most respected and rigorous preparation to change careers... you live in city 1.

If you are a working adult and you pursue the easiest opportunities to "not be left too far behind" or acquire a piece of paper which may open opportunities... you live in city 2.

As far as your city 4... just another suburb in city 1 for city 2 people do not pursue education, they acquire degrees.

Originally posted by BillDayson:
I think that Lewchuk's "cities" one and two represent only a fraction of DL and of participants at degreeinfo. He seems interested largely in prestige heirarchies, in obtaining a "badge" that can contribute to graduates' "pride" (and simultaneosly allow them to put down others.) Perhaps you can call these cities the successful and unsuccessful poseurs.

But I would guess that most of us live in two other "cities":

City #3, working adults who need additional education in order to stay current in their field, to advance in their profession or to change careers. This is probably the megapolis among the "cities", with the largest population by far.

City #4, those like myself who are in DL for the love of studying what interests them. This is a small but rather choice community in my opinion. Lots of libraries, bookstores, performance spaces, galleries and cafes.

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Lewchuk:
The problem is that you have two very different constituencies on this forum... two cities if you will...

City #1, high on the hill, are people who want the finest education available but cannot participate in a traditional program.

This suggests that the dwellers of "city #1" are those who want a traditional full-time on-campus experience but aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to enroll in one.

They search around the globe for the most prestigious programs available which can be completely at a distance.

Now you are suggesting that "city #1" is populated by those interested in "prestige".

They are concerned with quality, not accreditation.

Now the defining characteristicof "city #1" is undefined "quality".

They wear their degrees proudly, as badges of excellence, testiment to their victory in the field of academic competition.

Now "city #1" is populated by those who want to pose as superior to others.

They have no issue with traditional programs but merely desire to participate in them at a distance.

But if a 'traditional program' is defined as a full-time on-campus program, isn't this impossible in principle?

City #2, in the valley, are people who want the quickest and easiest education available.

Couldn't this be said of all distance education to some extent? That if you aren't prepared to attend an on-campus program full-time, then you are looking for an "easier" alternative?

And aren't there all kinds of intermediate positions between your "city #1", the person looking for a big-name "prestige" degree in order to assert superiority in "academic competition", and somebody who just wants a piece of paper with minimum effort?

In fact, don't the vast majority of distance education students fall between your two extremes?

They are concerned with accreditation, not quality.

Are these to things opposed to one another? And is accreditation something that a distance education student need not be concerned with?

They wear their degrees proudly because they have degrees like the people on the hill.

I guess so, but so what? I'm not sure who you are talking about here, since your "city #2" sounds like a caricature.

If you are simply sneering at programs that you don't consider "top tier", why shouldn't their graduates be proud?

They often ridicule traditional programs, for they often require effort.

Who are these people? I've never heard anyone on degreeinfo ever ridicule traditional programs.

And (surprise) non-traditional programs do require effort. I would have thought that a student in Heriot-Watt's external MBA program (a non-traditional program) would have already realized that.

	American InterContinental University Online American InterContinental University AIU offers Associate's, Bachelor's, and Master's degrees in all the following programs: business administration (MBA, marketing, finance, accounting, human resources, etc), criminal justice, computer science, information technology, healthcare administration, medical billing and coding, fine arts, and education. Special learning facilities include a learning resource center, art gallery, and computer labs. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school.

[Lewchuk]

I am not sure if you are being dense, an asshole or posing honest questions, so I will respond.

"This suggests that the dwellers of "city #1" are those who want a traditional full-time on-campus experience but aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to enroll in one."

No, it does not suggest that they want a traditional full-time experience nor that they are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to enroll in one... that may be the case but is not part of the definition. It merely suggests that these individuals desire the best education available. The "traditional program" merely reflects the fact that I am unaware of a DL program that is considered "best in the field" which, at the very least, does not have an on-campus copy.

"Now you are suggesting that "city #1" is populated by those interested in "prestige"."

Prestige, credibility, reputation, quality... cut-it however you want.

"Now the defining characteristicof "city #1" is undefined "quality"."

There is the old adage regarding pornography... very difficult to define buy most reasonable people know it if they see it.

"Now "city #1" is populated by those who want to pose as superior to others."

Who knows... the criteria is the desire for the best... "why" you desire the best is not the issue. I supposed some you compete in the Olypics do so to be seen as superior to others, others to achieve a dream, etc.

"But if a 'traditional program' is defined as a full-time on-campus program, isn't this impossible in principle?"

I would not define "traditional program" as a full-time on-campus program. Some reputable DL schools (i.e Open U and Athabasca) generally use traditional programs. A research doctorate is a research doctorate, regardless of the time spent in class. Several Universities replicate on-campus in traditional mode (Waterloo, Heriot-Watt, the Aussie schools, CSDH, etc.).

Couldn't this be said of all distance education to some extent? That if you aren't prepared to attend an on-campus program full-time, then you are looking for an "easier" alternative?

Not really. "Easier" perhaps from the perspective of not draining personal finances but I don't think poverty is really a prereq for a quality education. It is easy to make the argument that studying part-time, the same curriculum, is actually more difficult than studying full-time (I know many would agree).

"Are these to things opposed to one another? And is accreditation something that a distance education student need not be concerned with?"

If your focus is a quality education then accreditation is one of many factors (and probably not even a very important one) that you would consider. If you want to buy a degree the easiest way possible, accreditation is important because it effects a great deal of utility of your purchase.

Who are these people? I've never heard anyone on degreeinfo ever ridicule traditional programs.

You need to listen more closely.

Originally posted by BillDayson:
Who are these people? I've never heard anyone on degreeinfo ever ridicule traditional programs.

And (surprise) non-traditional programs do require effort. I would have thought that a student in Heriot-Watt's external MBA program (a non-traditional program) would have already realized that.

	American InterContinental University Online American InterContinental University AIU offers Associate's, Bachelor's, and Master's degrees in all the following programs: business administration (MBA, marketing, finance, accounting, human resources, etc), criminal justice, computer science, information technology, healthcare administration, medical billing and coding, fine arts, and education. Special learning facilities include a learning resource center, art gallery, and computer labs. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school.

[JimLane]

Communication theory and practice suggests you need to write more clearly if your message is not clearly understood.

As the originator, the burden is on you not the recipient.

What was that about being a dense? Were you talking about yourself?


jim

Originally posted by Lewchuk:
I am not sure if you are being dense, an asshole or posing honest questions, so I will respond.

snip


You need to listen more closely.

[barryfoster]

Originally posted by Lewchuk:
I am not sure if you are being dense, an asshole or posing honest questions, so I will respond.

<big snip of wasted bandwidth>

You need to listen more closely.

It seems that we could set a higher standard than responses such as this. What'cha think, Lewchuck?

Part of the educational process is learning how to deal with and even perhaps incorporate criticism of a person's ideas, writings and thoughts.

I really enjoy how you put ideas "out there". However, it is not a reflection on you personally if someone doesn't agree with you. Everyone has a very real right to disagree with you, without being called an asshole or whatever the label of the day is.

It'd be nice to have you, Lewchuck - a consistant contributor to this board - raise your level of interaction to a higher standard. I'd be willing to be that if you did you find a lot more respect for your ideas.

Come on, Lewchuck. Surprise us with a new approach! :-)

[ponotoc2]

>>I've had a good nights sleep, a couple of decent meals and the temperature is back down to a livable 78 degrees. I'm mildly amused at my own rant and appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

I just had to write in response - it's been 115 here so I know how it makes you feel - it was nice that you posted back - us newbies aren't ALL posting without prior research - I don't think 'cheap' is the word here, I think 'affordable' is - I've researched in the 80s for a DL BA, and earned one. Then in the 90s for a ?DL MA, and will be finished with that within a few weeks. Now I'm interested in PhD - and so far I bought several books, spent hours on the Internet, logged onto and joined this group, and even ran around to several universities within a 150 mile round trip from where I live to talked to professors -and now I have a list of pros and cons but sometimes opinions of others is what is needed to fill in the gaps - I have prices for completed degrees from $6,000 to $48,000. There certainly has to be middle of the road with accreditation somewhere out there for those of us who live far from any university. Where I live, we (as school teachers) don't make over $25,000 a year, and tuition reinbursement is $500 a year, so we're limited as far as expense goes - I didn't post all the above showing exactly what I did research BEFORE I posted the question, just the question itself. I'm used to having to post short at the university, they want no details, just the question, so, it was probably me you were referring to, and I just had to explain. Thank you, Mary

[bgossett]

Jack's comments appear general in nature, but surely can't be misconstrued as having been aimed at you intentionally, as they pre-date your arrival by several days.

------------------
Bill Gossett

[ponotoc2]

[quote]Originally posted by bgossett:
[b]Jack's comments appear general in nature, but surely can't be misconstrued as having been aimed at you intentionally, as they pre-date your arrival by several days.

Thank you Bill, I'm getting blasted in the MIGS section and I think I'm getting paranoid. They think I'm a plant. I was referred to this forum for help filling in the gaps on my research, and I can't get anywhere - Mary

[Jack Tracey]

...snipped...
I just had to write in response - it's been 115 here so I know how it makes you feel - it was nice that you posted back - us newbies aren't ALL posting without prior research
...snipped...

Hi Mary - I wasn't targeting you, or anyone else in particular. I'm aware that among the newbies we get there are those who do their research and those that are just looking for a handout. I'm glad to see that you are one of the former. Welcome to the forum and good luck with your endeavors.
Jack

[Nosborne]

I admit that what I don't understand is that people seem to want the credential. The credential shouldn't matter nearly so much as the learning and experience one must accumulate in the process of earning the credential.
Nosborne