Kennedy Western - DegreeInfo Distance Learning

Lajazz947 · #1 08-14-2002, 06:53 PM

Just as an aside, why is K/W enrollment not open to California residents?

Rafael

BS Western State University, Fullerton, CA
JD, " ", Fullerton, CA ( ABA )
MBA Pepperdine University, Malibu, CA
MS Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 2003

Bill Huffman · #2 08-14-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lajazz947
Just as an aside, why is K/W enrollment not open to California residents?

The short answer is that they are a degree mill and are physically located in California. It is very common for degree mills to not admit students from where they're physically located. They don't victimize people from their home jurisdiction because then fraud enforcement within that jurisdiction would more probably bring charges against them. Also it is easier for the victims to take the degree mill to court if they live in that state. It is almost a sure sign that a certain place is a worthless degree mill when they don't accept students from their own jurisdiction. I know of no valid reason for a legit school to have such a policy.

Fo a longer more detailed reason look here.
http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/sho...&threadid=5312

Bill Huffman · #3 08-14-2002, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Huffman

The short answer is that they are a degree mill and are physically located in California. It is very common for degree mills to not admit students from where they're physically located. They don't victimize people from their home jurisdiction because then fraud enforcement within that jurisdiction would more probably bring charges against them. Also it is easier for the victims to take the degree mill to court if they live in that state. It is almost a sure sign that a certain place is a worthless degree mill when they don't accept students from their own jurisdiction. I know of no valid reason for a legit school to have such a policy.

Fo a longer more detailed reason look here. In particular look at Rich's post.
http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/sho...&threadid=5312

Rich Douglas · #4 08-15-2002, 05:31 AM

K-WU used to operate as a "California-Authorized" school during the 1980's. When that category was eliminated, "Authorized" schools had to go through the much tougher--but still less so than accreditation--"Approved" process. Most "Authorized" schools chose to shut down or move out of state. K-WU moved its license to another state, and then another when they got kicked out of there. But the operation never moved from California. No legitimate schools do this.

I believe that California has actually enjoined K-WU from enrolling California residents. One wonders why this also didn't happen to other schools that never really left California, like Century. Or to schools that moved most of their degree programs to Hawaii's licensure while never leaving the state (only to have a few degree programs in "Approved" status in California). Frederick Taylor and Pacific Western come to mind. In those situations, a California resident can enroll in a California school and earn a degree that is licensed in Hawaii--and not approved by California. Why they tolerate this, I don't know.

RJT · #5 08-15-2002, 06:53 AM

Rich:

To my knowledge Century is based in NM. Pacific Western clearly differnciates, even with two seperate websites, which programs are HI/CA. By the way, the school just launched on-line programs for thier CA school - only. This is where the school seems to be making their active re-investments. I see nothing wrong with this, and the HI school site is clear to state it is unaccredited, but incorporated within HI. The CA school conforms with the code. ... Everything is legal, and upfront. Where is the issue?

As for Kennedy, they are clear to list that thier school is located in WY, and their administrative offices are based in CA. Having attended K-W, I can say without a doubt that thier cirricula is demanding. I am certain that they could easily meet the CA approval. However, since they were denied liscence renewal in ID (which required all schools to be RA), CA law prevents them from current CA approval. However, it is my understanding that the school is lobbying for reenlistment. Keep my fingers crossed.

RJT

Rich Douglas · #6 08-15-2002, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJT
Rich:

To my knowledge Century is based in NM.

The self-doctored Don Breslow continues to operate Century from Southern California.

Pacific Western clearly differnciates, even with two seperate websites, which programs are HI/CA.

So? The school awards degrees under the PWU name. PWU is listed among California-Approved schools. You can enroll in a non-California-Approved degree from PWU, administered from California, and no distinction is easily discernable. Besides, there is no evidence that California Approval makes a degree any more valuable than one from a Hawaii-licensed school. In fact, there is some evidence to the contrary: both can be worthless.

By the way, the school just launched on-line programs for thier CA school - only. This is where the school seems to be making their active re-investments. I see nothing wrong with this, and the HI school site is clear to state it is unaccredited, but incorporated within HI. The CA school conforms with the code. ... Everything is legal, and upfront. Where is the issue?

If true, this demonstrates their lack of commitment to educational standards. They clearly have two sets of rules. Which do you think they prefer? The less stringent, of course, or they would apply their innovations across the board. No, the California-Approved operation serves to give some glimmer of legitimacy to the entire operation, hoping most consumers will either not know the difference or will go along with the gag.

Remember, PWU moved almost its entire operation under Hawaii's non-regulatory licensing process when a similar category of operation in California was eliminated. Why don't they move everything under California law? Because most of what they do wouldn't even pass that low standard.

Legal? Sure. But just because you can do something doesn't make it a good idea.

As for Kennedy, they are clear to list that thier school is located in WY, and their administrative offices are based in CA.

Yeah, empty offices. The school is run from California, and California should shut it down.

Having attended K-W, I can say without a doubt that thier cirricula is demanding.

Please don't use yourself as a supposed source for that contention; you do not even display the knowledge necessary to discern between "curriculum" and "curricula," or even how to properly spell "their." Normally I wouldn't comment on that, but you used yourself as an example of how demanding their curriculum is (or "curricula are"). Also, compared to what? You haven't completed a legitimate bachelor's degree, and certainly are not experienced in higher education. How would you know?

I am certain that they could easily meet the CA approval.

Really? Then why did they move their operation to two subsequent states? Without ever leaving California? Wouldn't it be prudent for them to be able to offer their degrees to people in their home state, which make up about 15% of the U.S. market? No. They don't care about California students because they sell degrees to Asian students by the buckets.

However, since they were denied liscence renewal in ID (which required all schools to be RA), CA law prevents them from current CA approval. However, it is my understanding that the school is lobbying for reenlistment. Keep my fingers crossed.

I've never heard that K-WU is prevented from California Approval solely because their Idaho license was revoked. Do you have a source for this?

Bill Huffman · #7 08-15-2002, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Douglas
I've never heard that K-WU is prevented from California Approval solely because their Idaho license was revoked. Do you have a source for this?

Roberta, Roberta, Roberta, shame on you. You had recently done so much better about avoiding your apparent tendency to state falsehoods as fact. I'm so disappointed that I'll plead with you to provide any kind of evidence supporting this BS. I guarantee that I'll gladly apologize profusely for calling you a reckless spewer of nonsense.

RJT · #8 08-15-2002, 09:27 AM

The Difference would be on the PW Degree Diploma, one would state from Hi, and the other would state CA. Also, the transcripts would differenciate - the HI states clearly - HI campus, while the other states CA campus. If you order the catalog, it is poined out. The school is clear to distinguish. Why is this an issue doesn't Pheonix have several campuses, including in HI? I do not see you adrdently in opposition to them.

Why do you say that CA approved degrees are worthless? You've been a defendor of CalPacific and CCU in the past. If both schools are legit, why the change?

Dr. Colleen · #9 08-15-2002, 10:05 AM

Richard,

I don't want to get into an entire Century urinary Olympics, but I know you like to be accurate. Century's operations are located in New Mexico. I know folks who have been to their location.

Don Breslow is now one of the Board of Governors. He may live in Southern Ca. and may have influence in the University. However, the operations are in New Mexico, operate legally under New Mexico law, and are not dodging Ca. law.

Rich Douglas · #10 08-15-2002, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJT
The Difference would be on the PW Degree Diploma, one would state from Hi, and the other would state CA. Also, the transcripts would differenciate - the HI states clearly - HI campus, while the other states CA campus. If you order the catalog, it is poined out. The school is clear to distinguish.

Does it? And does it matter? The "school" is and has always been located in California.

Why is this an issue doesn't Pheonix have several campuses, including in HI? I do not see you adrdently in opposition to them.

Because the University of Phoenix is accredited. Also, if they're in Hawaii (I didn't look; I'll take your word for it), then they're really in Hawaii, not somewhere else. This is not a very apt comparison.

Why do you say that CA approved degrees are worthless? You've been a defendor of CalPacific and CCU in the past. If both schools are legit, why the change?

"Defendor?" (sic) Not to hear some people tell it. I've tried to be balanced over the years in my opinions regarding these schools. However, I've grown less and less supportive since the regional accreditors began recognizing DL schools, and since the emergence of the DETC as an accreditor of degree-granting schools. The only "change" is your characterization of my statements, not in my stance towards these schools and the degrees they issue.

Rich Douglas · #11 08-15-2002, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Colleen
Richard,

I don't want to get into an entire Century urinary Olympics, but I know you like to be accurate. Century's operations are located in New Mexico. I know folks who have been to their location.

Don Breslow is now one of the Board of Governors. He may live in Southern Ca. and may have influence in the University. However, the operations are in New Mexico, operate legally under New Mexico law, and are not dodging Ca. law.

Yeah, I overstated this a bit. But why Breslow moved his school--despite remaining behind to run it from California--is clear and from his own lips: to avoid California's new (at the time) requirement that all unaccredited schools be approved, not just authorized. (This according to a conversation Bear had with Breslow).

But Colleen is quite right to point out that Century has as its main presence its operation in New Mexico. While Breslow ran it from California, the rest of the operation has always been in New Mexico since the move. Not quite the same as K-WU.

Again, sorry. As for the rest of the Century bric-a-brac, no need to re-hash here, as Colleen suggests. But a search of this board's threads....

RJT · #12 08-16-2002, 06:51 AM

Rich:

I am disappointed with your position on CA Approved Schools. First, while you may not concur, the amount of courses one must take with SCUPS, CPU, CCU, and PW-CA, are comparable to RA schools, also, like PW-CA's new site many of the courses are now completed directly on-line, thus averting the correspondence stigma, that may be associated. Also, having spoken with Dr. Dalton directly, and extensively studying the CPU catalog, I wuill say without a doubt they are a legit and respectable alternative to RA. As the matter of fact, I've refferred several coworkers there. Just a reminder - the CA Regautaory Board vists all approved schools and studies their programs in CA, so therre is a standard.

You have consistantly come down hard on K-W, however, being a soon to be graduate of K-W, I do take some offense at your constant negative PR about the school. First they heve challanging coursework one must complete. Second, one must create, without a doubt the toughest part, either a final project, thesis or dissertation, depending upon the degree. Third, all instuctors are RA professors, most with PHD's. Fourth, they are regulated by the WY DoE, who even visted their CA headquarters and passed the school in the review. Fifth, they may have moved around, but I believe they have found a home in WY. Sixth, the school is consitutionally legal and authorized by the state to grant degrees.

Admittingly, there are limitations. But they are an alternative to folks like myself, for whom a state liscenced university is acceptable. The school is not a mill.

RJT

Bill Huffman · #13 08-16-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJT
Rich:
...
Admittingly, there are limitations. But they are an alternative to folks like myself, for whom a state liscenced university is acceptable. The school is not a mill.

Roberta, whether or not Kennedy-Western is a degree mill depends most heavily on one's definition of degree mill. I use what I believe is the more common definition and that is a school that is substandard, below the normally accepted standard. The normally accepted standard within the USA is RA. K-W is well below that standard especially their Bachelor's degrees. Therefore they are a degree mill.

K-W is an alternative for people looking to cut corners and find an easier way to get their degree.
1. K-W is a degree mill because they do NOT properly grant credit for life experience. The way that is really done is through portfolio or rigorous exam per course.
2. K-W is a degree mill because they don't accept California students.
3. K-W is a degree mill because they don't publish their graduation requirements.
4. K-W is a degree mill because they bounce their mailing address from state to state to avoid oversight.
5. K-W is a degree mill because they accept students without the required background and then don't even offer the prerequisite classes so that a student can learn required background knowledge for a "K-W required" class.
6. K-W is a degree mill because they will grant degrees for taking far below the normal standard number of classes.
7. K-W is a degree mill because they charge one fee for a degree rather than per course or per semester.
7. K-W is an unaccredited degree mill.

Rich Douglas · #14 08-16-2002, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJT
Rich:

I am disappointed with your position on CA Approved Schools.

And, exactly, who are "you."?

First, while you may not concur, the amount of courses one must take with SCUPS, CPU, CCU, and PW-CA, are comparable to RA schools, also, like PW-CA's new site many of the courses are now completed directly on-line, thus averting the correspondence stigma, that may be associated.

I really don't care about the quality of coursework--or lack thereof--offered by these schools. I've never commented on them, save for CCU's open-book, multiple-choice exams. Rather, I've routinely objected to your over-inflation of the value of such a degree.

Also, having spoken with Dr. Dalton directly, and extensively studying the CPU catalog, I wuill say without a doubt they are a legit and respectable alternative to RA. As the matter of fact, I've refferred several coworkers there.

So? You've conducted your one-person evaluation with no standards, methods, or access to information. Great.

Just a reminder - the CA Regautaory Board vists all approved schools and studies their programs in CA, so therre is a standard.

I didn't say there was no standard. I just made it clear that the approval process doesn't approach accreditation. Nor does the value of a degree from an approved school approach one from an accredited school. You're making up your own arguments here.

You have consistantly come down hard on K-W, however, being a soon to be graduate of K-W, I do take some offense at your constant negative PR about the school.

As if anything anyone around here says ever sees the light of day.

First they heve challanging coursework one must complete. Second, one must create, without a doubt the toughest part, either a final project, thesis or dissertation, depending upon the degree. Third, all instuctors are RA professors, most with PHD's. Fourth, they are regulated by the WY DoE, who even visted their CA headquarters and passed the school in the review. Fifth, they may have moved around, but I believe they have found a home in WY. Sixth, the school is consitutionally legal and authorized by the state to grant degrees.

Congratulations. You've repeated all of the old, tired arguments in favor of K-WU. Please excuse me if I don't repeat the same refutations.

Admittingly, there are limitations. But they are an alternative to folks like myself, for whom a state liscenced university is acceptable. The school is not a mill.

That's in the eye of the beholder.

DaveHayden · #15 08-16-2002, 08:49 AM

As Bill rightly points out it is clear K-W IS a degree mill. It is illegal in at least 2 states. Continues to move from state to state to avoid meaningful regulation. It doesn't even make its "catalog" available on its web page. Heck the local community college does THAT! Oh yeah, the local community college is Regionally Accredited. Let's see K-W has NO accreditation. RJT you should save yourself some money and just print your diploma off on your printer. It will be more legitimate and have more respect than a K-W one.

Bill Huffman · #16 08-16-2002, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveHayden
RJT you should save yourself some money and just print your diploma off on your printer. It will be more legitimate and have more respect than a K-W one.

I'm not sure that a self printed diploma would be more legitimate than a K-W one but it is absolutly true it will have more respect. Just remember that Burlap University is taken. Roberta, you'll just have to think up your own name.

Kragon · #17 11-14-2002, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Huffman

The short answer is that they are a degree mill and are physically located in California. It is very common for degree mills to not admit students from where they're physically located. They don't victimize people from their home jurisdiction because then fraud enforcement within that jurisdiction would more probably bring charges against them. Also it is easier for the victims to take the degree mill to court if they live in that state. It is almost a sure sign that a certain place is a worthless degree mill when they don't accept students from their own jurisdiction. I know of no valid reason for a legit school to have such a policy.

Fo a longer more detailed reason look here.
http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/sho...&threadid=5312

Bill I notice you have alot of points that you bring up about KW University. Have you been a student? Employee? Gone through the program? Or is this just personal opinion based on opinions you have read from other peoples opinions? I would like to know where you base your facts for these statements? Because you seem to be an expert on KWU.

Bill Huffman · #18 11-14-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kragon
Bill I notice you have alot of points that you bring up about KW University. Have you been a student? Employee? Gone through the program? Or is this just personal opinion based on opinions you have read from other peoples opinions? I would like to know where you base your facts for these statements? Because you seem to be an expert on KWU.

I am an expert chess player and an expert software engineer. I don't claim to be an expert at KWU nor at degree mills in general. Most of my knowledge regarding degree mills was gained from reading Bear's Guide and reading this forum and a.e.d..

The definition of what is a degree mill is subjective, meaning that different people use different definitions. KWU fits enough of the signs of a degree mill that I feel very comfortable calling it a degree mill. The attributes of KWU that most contribute to my opinion of KWU being a degree are:
1. Unaccredited
2. Will not admit students from its resident state
3. Has moved its mailbox address from one state to another to avoid prosecution for being an illegal school. Specifically, it fled the states of California, Hawaii, and Iowa. So it's now in Wyoming.

I would not hesitate to call any "school" a degree mill if it had the above three attributes. There's no need for me to have ever worked there or attended school there.

I have never been affiliated with KWU.

Rich Douglas · #19 11-14-2002, 07:52 PM

It is not necessary to attend--or work for or hang around--Kennedy-Western University in order to form an opinion about it. If that were true, one would have to attend every degree mill, errrrrrr.......alternative university in order to talk abou them.

What is important is whether or not someone is telling the truth. And the truth about K-WU is very much evident. Operated in California under the non-evaluative "Authorized" category. Moved its license (but not its Southern California operations) to South Dakota when California eliminated the Authorized category and required all unaccredited schools to become Approved. Moved to Wyoming when South Dakota became distressed over the number of unaccredited, non-resident, and practically non-existent schools choosing it as a new haven. Remains unaccredited and unregulated in Wyoming, all the while operating from California. Enjoined from admitting California residents. Offers bachelor's degrees based upon 5 "courses" and a paper, regardless of one's prior education and experience.

One does not need to "attend" K-WU to know these things.

uncle janko · #20 11-14-2002, 08:32 PM

"liscense"

...the rest is commentary

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