Berne University International Graduate School

For what it is worth I have solid (not hearsay) information that a NACES member agency did give the Berne Ph.D. equivalency to a US accredited Ph.D. Therefore, for someone in my situation where the employer would require a foreign credential evaluation, Berne University may well meet the need.

Would it get you a full time faculty slot at a major state university.....probably not...... but then would a Capella Ph.D. either?

North

	Capella University Capella University Capella provides working adults the opportunity to earn online degrees in the fields of business management, health care, nursing, criminal justice, higher education, psychology, social work, human resources, information technology, mental health and counseling, K-12 education, public safety and public administration, and public service leadership. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school. [/center]

[Timmy Ade]

North,

For what is worth also, I’ve always felt that Berne is always been unfairly criticized. But again they call me an apologist for bad schools, Sheila Danzig, Sheila etc.….


Peace,

Timmy Who is never an apologist for any School.

[EllisZ]

Hmmm ... interesting ....

Originally posted by Timmy Ade
North,

For what is worth also, I’ve always felt that Berne is always been unfairly criticized. But again they call me an apologist for bad schools, Sheila Danzig, Sheila etc.….


Peace,

Timmy Who is never an apologist for any School.

I am no fan at all of unaccredited schools (exception BJU). With regard to Berne no one could really comment in terms of quality which may well be that of UIU & Capella etc. What was an issue was utility. It now appears the Berne U degree may well have utility (not necessarily universal). So, Berne seems to meet GAAP and will be an option for some.

North

	Capella University Capella University Capella provides working adults the opportunity to earn online degrees in the fields of business management, health care, nursing, criminal justice, higher education, psychology, social work, human resources, information technology, mental health and counseling, K-12 education, public safety and public administration, and public service leadership. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school. [/center]

[bgossett]

Does this mean I have to take down the printout of the Berne U. banner stretched across the hotel balcony? That and the one of the intrepid ACI accreditation team are my favorite "motivators".

[Bruce]

My gut feeling is that Berne has found a clever loophole through which they can claim legitimate accreditation.

The recent revelation by John Bear that Berne immediately offered to waive residency to a potential student doesn't do much to change my mind about them.


Bruce

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by North
For what it is worth I have solid (not hearsay) information that a NACES member agency did give the Berne Ph.D. equivalency to a US accredited Ph.D. Therefore, for someone in my situation where the employer would require a foreign credential evaluation, Berne University may well meet the need.

Would it get you a full time faculty slot at a major state university.....probably not...... but then would a Capella Ph.D. either?

North

Here's a repost of my reply to a similar post that North made on Distancedegree.net:

North wrote:
Nonetheless, it appears that Survey is correct about this. ECI is a NACES member organization and apparently based on my information has given PhD equivalency.

OK, what does that mean? Presumably, that the Berne syllabus resembles the requirements for an accredited doctorate. But this is just a matter of comparing catalog pages, or at best transcripts, isn't it?

We all know that many substandard schools have beautiful catalogs. We know that there are degree mills that will sell you not only a fake diploma, but phony transcripts as well. So what is preventing these kind of abuses in Berne's case? Even if real work is required, how does the required standard for that work compare with what is normally expected? This is where accreditation comes in.

This means for someone like me, that if I need the degree for my job which only accepts accredited schools and would require a foreign credential evaluator to give equivalency, this might be an option.

There's a logical non-sequitur there, North. How does the credential evaluator transmogrify into an accreditor?

As I see it, one of two things can happen:

1. The credential evaluator can simply take the foreign accreditation at face value. That's what "Survey" himself described, when he said that the evaluator contacted the St. Kitts ministry of education and confirmed Berne's accreditation.

2. Or the evaluator can try to determine whether the foreign accreditation equates to what we understand by the term. That's the process that's set out in Article VIII of the Lisbon Convention, which I have already quoted elsewhere. The process is to make inquiries of the accrediting body, which in turn provide information on the standards necessary for accredited status, how those standards are assessed, and the results of the assessment in the case of the questioned school. Alan Contreras made those inquiries to the St. Kitts ministry, and to my knowledge never received a reply.

Bottom line: What you describe is a big gaping loophole in the integrity of the accreditation process. If employers accept credential evaluator's reports as accreditationn-equivalence, and if credential evaluators in turn simply depend on the word of an off-shore accreditor without making any inquiries as to its credibility, you have opened the door to serious potential abuse.

	Capella University Capella University Capella provides working adults the opportunity to earn online degrees in the fields of business management, health care, nursing, criminal justice, higher education, psychology, social work, human resources, information technology, mental health and counseling, K-12 education, public safety and public administration, and public service leadership. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school. [/center]

While I see the point of Bill's statement, I also think that we could make the same argument about RA in terms of if employers simply took it at face value. Consider the disparity in terms of comments made about the quality of UofP. RA is used as a measure to give a guarentee of a minimum standard. A foreign credential evlauation is used in the same way by employers and schools even if we take issue with it.

I cannot comment on the quality of what Berne U does and would certainly have issues with past blunders but lets look at this in another way in terms of some utility & comparison.

i) Berne was in the past called a mill and had less than wonderful accreditation. The Union Institute & the University of Sarasota had similar remarks made about them early on as well. UIU was called a *mill* in an article posted here. University of Sarasota was called something similar in an old article which made reference to it operating out of a motel. Even Capella was practically called a mail order mill by one of the Minnesota education big wigs (J. Bear mentioned the quote in his book).

ii) Berne rents a campus for summer residency (the one from which it hung the banner which was not a hotel as previously mentioned). Walden University and Capella both rent other colleges campus' for summer residency as they operate out of office space.

iii) Berne is listed in the UNESCO Handbook and has Ministry of Education approval (accreditation). There were concerns about what this actually meant and still may be concerns.

iv) A NACES member agency gives Berne Ph.D equivalency to a US RA Ph.D.

In terms of utility this means that for some people the recognized Foreign Credential Evaluation will mean they can use the degrees (for instance in the organization I work for who are picky in that degrees must be accredited or evaluated by Foreign Credential Evaluators...No State Approved Schools).

Will somone necessarily get a faculty position. Maybe not (someone posted some faculty with the degree) but then I think that a graduate of Capella or Walden might have similar difficulty.

I am not saying it is Harvard and I think a US based RA degree will likely enjoy more acceptance but it is GAAP.

North

	Capella University Capella University Capella provides working adults the opportunity to earn online degrees in the fields of business management, health care, nursing, criminal justice, higher education, psychology, social work, human resources, information technology, mental health and counseling, K-12 education, public safety and public administration, and public service leadership. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click Here to receive FREE information on this school. [/center]

	Union Institute University Union Institute UIU offers online Bachelor’s Degrees in Art, Criminal Justice, Cultural Studies, Environmental Studies, Holistic Studies, Liberal Studies – Education, Literature & Writing, Psychology, Thematic Studies, and Women’s/Gender Studies; and Master of Arts in Health & Wellness, History & Culture, Leadership, Public Policy, Social, Literature & Writing, Psychology, and Creativity. The school is regionally accredited, the most widely recognized accreditation. Click The Link to receive FREE information on this school.

For what it is worth, the government web site has posted information on accreditation.

http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html

North

[triggersoft]

Hi friends.

My question (which I also posted in the "accredited vs. unaccredited"-part of the forum):

if "Education International, Inc." in Wellesley, MA is a fully accepted NACES member,

do you think an institution like Excelsior, TESC or COSC would accept credits transfered in by "Education International, Inc."?

what are your thoughts?

greets,

trigger

[Bruce]

Originally posted by North
For what it is worth, the government web site has posted information on accreditation.

Don't you wonder just a little bit when the only schools listed on the government website are;

1) The only "National College" on St. Kitts & Nevis.
2) The only medical school on St. Kitts & Nevis.
3) The only veterinary school on St. Kitts & Nevis.
4) Two questionable US schools who appear to be skirting legitimate accreditation.

I would hope this would raise some red flags, at the very least.


Bruce

[Peter French]

Originally posted by Bruce


Don't you wonder just a little bit when the only schools listed on the government website are;

1) The only "National College" on St. Kitts & Nevis.
2) The only medical school on St. Kitts & Nevis.
3) The only veterinary school on St. Kitts & Nevis.
4) Two questionable US schools who appear to be skirting legitimate accreditation.

I would hope this would raise some red flags, at the very least.


Bruce

One test of utility is - would you employ a Berne Graduate if teh degree level yuo needed was a Berne degree?

But then of course, apart from this little bunch of fellow missfits, who else would know?

Seriously I'd really want to know a lot about what was actually done and the rigour of it all, but then, I make that a rule with all employees if i don't know the degree intimately.

Peter French

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Peter French
One test of utility is - would you employ a Berne Graduate if teh degree level yuo needed was a Berne degree?

I have absolutely nothing to do with hiring at my job, but if you're asking me for my personal opinion, I would disregard any degree from Berne. The applicant would be hired based on his/her record outside of the Berne degree. For my purposes, Berne wouldn't exist.

[quote]Originally posted by Peter French
But then of course, apart from this little bunch of fellow missfits, who else would know?[quote]

Huh?


Bruce

[Peter French]

[quote]Originally posted by Bruce



[quote]Originally posted by Peter French
But then of course, apart from this little bunch of fellow missfits, who else would know?

Huh?


Bruce

I will reword that as you don't understand my humour -

...apart from those of us here, and those that are concerned, who else would know this? So the pardhment, transcript and wotsit from that bloke in his house would be convincing to enough employers to land the 'graduate' a job.

Comprendez vous?

Voila!

Pierre.

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Bruce
I would hope this would raise some red flags, at the very least.

My guess is that this webpage is a response to Berne being on the Oregon list, and to wider skepticism expressed towards its accreditation claims.

Frankly, I don't believe a word of it.

1. Why did St. Kitts create a ministry accreditation office and accreditation criteria if its entire domestic higher education sector was only one tiny community college that was *already* a branch of the University of the West Indies? It seems that it exists to service the off-shore schools that have set up shop there.

2. The criteria mention site visits. But how in the world does one visit a "virtual" university that doesn't *have* any site on the island, except for renting a few rooms a couple of weeks a year?

3. If Berne can meet stringent accreditation criteria, why didn't it apply to NEASC (its local regional accreditor)? Why did it feel the need to set up an address of convenience on a small Carribbean island?

It's bullshit, Bruce. But I'm not going to be the Steve Levicoff in this little debacle. If North wants to promote it as RA-equivalent because it is listed in a book and has put up a website, I'll shut up and let him.

I will say that this is going to be a big issue in the future. If Berne finds a backdoor into widespread acceptance as accreditation-equivalence merely because it took up a convenience address on an autonomous island, all of the degreemills that presently infest places like Hawaii and Wyoming are gonna be taking their own Caribbean vacations.

When the problem eventually reaches a critical mass (and it will), there is gonna be a scandal, there wiill be stories in the press, and time-bombs will start detonating in resumes.

It will end up doing serious harm to students who were burned, to distance education which will have suffered still another black eye, and to Degreeinfo, whose credibility will be shot if it had previously been selling these things.

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Peter French
One test of utility is - would you employ a Berne Graduate if teh degree level yuo needed was a Berne degree?

If it were my decision, would I hire a Berne graduate?

If the degree were a critical requirement for the position, definitely no.

If the degree were just part of a package, and if the person were otherwise well qualified, I might. But the degree would definitely raise a red flag, and I would inquire about it. If the applicant made any misleading claims or puffed it in any way, I wouldn't hire him. But if he was honest about it, I would consider him just as I would consider a graduate of a CA-approved school.

[irat]

I guess my problem with the Berne situation is that it is like reading a mathematical proof.
If Berne is legitimate
If it is recognized in its home country (is that USA or St.Kitts)
If it is NACES recognized
If it's name does appear on a list with the UN
Then it might meet GAAP
And therefore it may offer useful degrees.
If the bulk of students come from the USA, why doesn't Berne seek accreditation through DETC? The U. of South Africa did for its 1st degrees.
I guess the other question is that Berne clearly does some business in the USA. Is it legally registered in those states where it does some business? (Not another MIGS in FL or TX)
As in any mathematical proof, one break in the chain of arguement, and the negative become true. The longer the chain, the greater the number of things that could be wrong.
It is alot simpler to look at U.X. , accredited by Middle States, and skip four or five steps in reasoning.
All the best!

[Gert Potgieter]

Originally posted by irat
... If the bulk of students come from the USA, why doesn't Berne seek accreditation through DETC? The U. of South Africa did for its 1st degrees. ...

As an aside, the demographics of Berne and Unisa students are very different. Unisa has about 130,000 registered distance-education students, mostly from its home country and only 373 in the U.S. (as of start of this year). So Unisa has only 0.3% of its students in U.S.

[Rich Douglas]

I had an interesting conversation with Arthur Feldman and his administrative assistant, Lynn. Feldman heads up the Proprietary School Licensing Agency of the Postsecondary Education Commission in New Hampshire. It is his office that is tasked with dealing with Berne.

Mr. Feldman had nothing kind to say about Berne, calling it a "rip-off" and a "scam." He expressed great concern about students pursuing what would turn out to be worthless degrees. He made it clear that Berne had no legal status in New Hampshire. He wanted to generate publicity about Berne, and also said it was their intent to shut Berne down.

(NB: I'm not trying to add any additional weight to the "scam" and "rip-off" comments by reporting them. In fact, it has been my experience over the years to hear such things from folks working in traditional higher education.)

Lynn said they were working on defining what having a physical presence in the state means. They'll then apply that definition to Berne's New Hampshire operation and see what comes of it. They might end up regulating the school somehow, or try to get it to cease operations in the state. They were very interested to find out more about Berne. I referred them to this site as well as Peter's new one. Anyone else who might be able to reach them can get their contact information at http://www.state.nh.us/postsecondary/pro.html .

Finally, I passed this on to a reporter with The Chronicle of Higher Education who interviewed me once about MIGS.

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[Timmy Ade]

“If North wants to promote it as RA-equivalent because it is listed in a book and has put up a website, I'll shut up and let him.”

William, This must be the best thing you said in recent memory. I sincerely hope that North will ignore your biased, illogical, know it all crap-loaded analysis and move on. I am sure that He is matured and well informed enough to decide what is good for Him. I see another gang up in the making over another potentially good DL alternative. Berne is not MIGS, I doubt if you Guys can write them to bankruptcy like you did to MIGS.



Real Candidate Timmy