Dr. Jerry Vines & the Prophet

This has something of a distance learning connection in the Dr. Jerry Vines is a Th.D. graduate of Luther Rice Seminary. He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old). Dr. Vines was quoting a couple of PhD professors who are converts from Islam. The whole thing apparently upset some muslim groups. Dr. Vines is pastor of a 25,000 member Church.

There was an interesting discussion of it on Hannity & Colmes where Jerry Falwell discussed the issue with Hannity & Colmes.

North

[telfax]

From what my US friends tell me Falwell didn't discuss at all! He simply re-asserted the Vine view point throughout his interview and promoted his own university's courses in Islam!

telfax

Originally posted by telfax
From what my US friends tell me Falwell didn't discuss at all! He simply re-asserted the Vine view point throughout his interview and promoted his own university's courses in Islam!

telfax

It certainly was not an academic discussion and J.F is a friend of Dr. Vines (who is well known among Baptists although you tell neither Hannity or Colmes had an idea who he was).

One of them tried to set J. Falwell up by asking if he thought Christianity was a *better* religion than Islam. Falwell replied that Christianity was not a religion (etc) so he did not bite on that.

Apparently, Falwell quite enjoys appearing on various news programs and debating with people regarding his views. Not necessailry heavily academic debates but he is not a theologian. Bishop Shelby Spong found that out when he debated him and then in a book gloated something to the effect about how Falwell was not really prepared for theolgical debate. I find Bishop Spong's theology distasteful, his attempts to be sooo liberal make me ill, and I don't find him anywhere near as intellectual as he thinks he is. Falwell on the other hand has become quite likable in his 60's.


North

Originally posted by North
This has something of a distance learning connection in the Dr. Jerry Vines is a Th.D. graduate of Luther Rice Seminary. He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old). Dr. Vines was quoting a couple of PhD professors who are converts from Islam. The whole thing apparently upset some muslim groups. Dr. Vines is pastor of a 25,000 member Church.

There was an interesting discussion of it on Hannity & Colmes where Jerry Falwell discussed the issue with Hannity & Colmes.

North

I just realized that I stuck this on the wrong Forum. Should have been off topic.

I guess even Gen Xers are not infallible.

North

[Tom Head]

Originally posted by North
This has something of a distance learning connection in the Dr. Jerry Vines is a Th.D. graduate of Luther Rice Seminary. He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old).

I would be very interested in any citation that establishes that the marriage was consummated, since this would be contrary to Islamic law (which establishes a minimum age for such things--fourteen, I think). We tend to assume that consummation always comes with marriage, but that's because in our culture marriage is monogamous and not arranged. In 7th century Persian culture, the situation was very different. Someone might take a fourth or fifth wife for practical or political reasons, and never consummate the marriage at all.


Peace,

[Tom Head]

(FWIW: I like to watch both Spong and Falwell, and think they're basically good people, but I don't remotely agree with either of them. I'm not sure which of the two I disagree with more.)


Cheers,

Originally posted by Tom Head

I would be very interested in any citation that establishes that the marriage was consummated, since this would be contrary to Islamic law (which establishes a minimum age for such things--fourteen, I think). We tend to assume that consummation always comes with marriage, but that's because in our culture marriage is monogamous and not arranged. In 7th century Persian culture, the situation was very different. Someone might take a fourth or fifth wife for practical or political reasons, and never consummate the marriage at all.


Peace,

I suppose a little research would turn up the name of the book by the two profs and then some sort of citation. I think when Hannity & Colmes mentioned it they said something about it being a debated notion for years among muslims as well.

Personally, I have no horse in the race. I disagree with Islam for other reasons and obviously do not accept the basics of the Islamic faith nor the divine inspiration of Mohamad. I do respect Muslims right to practice their faith in peace. As a matter of fact I took an undergraduate course in Islam from a Muslim professor and found it very interesting. Of special note is that there are many sects within Islam beyond the Sunni & Shiite sects that are normally thought of. In fact I and my partner were unable to make a visit to our sect as other members of the class were because our group (don't remember the name) was secretive and into mysticism (somewhat like the Kabbalah). The other members of the class were well received by their host muslim congregations.

I also took a class on Taoism. What I learned from all of it was to be tolerant. I do not believe their faiths represent *The* truth in the way that Christianity does but I have a great deal of respect for their differing beliefs, their right to practice them, and their right to believe that their beliefs are *The* truth. My heartburn comes from people who try to force people to accept their beliefs. This is where I think America excels (protecting free speech & freedom of religion). Even liberal countries like Sweden bend over the other way and try to squash free speech (see O'Reilly Factor discussion today) in an attempt to offend no one.

North

[Bruce]

Originally posted by North
He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old). Dr. Vines was quoting a couple of PhD professors who are converts from Islam. The whole thing apparently upset some muslim groups.

Gee...I can't understand why.


Bruce

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by North
This has something of a distance learning connection in the Dr. Jerry Vines is a Th.D. graduate of Luther Rice Seminary. He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old).

Two comments:

1. We all know that atheist militants have made an industry out of doing the exact same thing with the Bible. There are countless Biblical passages that sound awfully bad, particularly when taken out of context. This is a pretty superficial sort of apologetics, and one that can easily turn around and bite the person using it.

2. This speech, and the apparent fact that the Southern Baptists heard it without complaint, is a dangerous provocation in the current climate.

After the events of 9-11, I actually feared a pogrom. There were a lot of Americans who were totally pissed at the "rag heads", and I would not have been surprised to see Muslim mosques, homes and businesses going up in flames. The leadership quickly stepped in to head it off, and I was heartened by the restraint and good sense of the American people. Tempers cooled.

But if there is another major terrorist attack (and there obviously will be), the anal extrusions could still hit the fan.

That was the whole point of knocking down the WTC. The hope was that Americans would be so angry that we would strike back blindly at Islam, driving our peoples and our civilizations irrevocably apart.

Radical mullahs in places like Pakistan preach hatred of us every day. It dissapoints me that our own radical ministers are doing the exact same thing in reverse, and it scares me that it's happening under the auspices of one of the largest churches in the United States.

That's doing the work of Osama bin Ladin.

[Tom Head]

Originally posted by BillDayson
2. This speech, and the apparent fact that the Southern Baptists heard it without complaint, is a dangerous provocation in the current climate.

Not only did they hear it, but new SBC president Jack Graham called it "an accurate statement":
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...al/3447243.htm

When offered the opportunity to discuss his comments in the presence of people who are more familiar with Islam, Vines refused:
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...t_9693742.html

The Qur'an makes no mention of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage to Muhammad; there does seem to be a literary tradition in the Hadiths that she was a child at the time of their marriage (six or nine, depending on the Hadith), a few even suggesting that the marriage was consummated when she was nine, others suggesting that she was brought into his house at nine but the marriage wasn't consummated until she was of age, etc., but these Hadiths are not universally accepted as authoritative even among Muslims, and it is rather unlikely that they are particularly accurate in a historical sense as they were written long after Muhammad's death. In other words: There's a small nugget of truth to the idea that there are documentary traditions that suggest Muhammad might have been a pedophile, but nothing particularly solid, and nothing that would lead anyone with a room-temperature IQ to declare him a "demon-possessed pedophile" in public. If Muhammad were still alive, he'd have grounds for a pretty good lawsuit.


Peace,

[Tom Head]

Here's a very good rebuttal to the "pedophile" claim from someone who knows quite a bit more about Islam than I do. This article was originally written in 1998, which gives me an idea of how long this particular thorn has been around:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...estion&qid=375

Incidentally, the main site -- http://www.understanding-islam.com -- apparently addresses many, many things of this nature, and has been doing so for years, so I've bookmarked it for future use.


Cheers,

Originally posted by Tom Head
I would be very interested in any citation that establishes that the marriage was consummated, since this would be contrary to Islamic law

Since Mohammed wrote Islamic law as it was given to him, all of this was prior to the law was it not?

Of course, many religious icons prescribe one law for their adherents, and another for themselves.

[Tom Head]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris
Since Mohammed wrote Islamic law as it was given to him, all of this was prior to the law was it not?

The assumption in Islamic jurisprudence, as in rabbinics, is that certain aspects of religious law are predicated on natural law; not sure if the exact age of consent would qualify, but I'm pretty sure pedophilia would be precluded by any natural ethic.

In any case, it's not applicable in this situation as the Hadith tradition in question is not regarded as a canonical one. This would be roughly comparable to criticizing Christianity on the basis of Dante's Inferno.


Cheers,

[telfax]

Everyone has commented with common sense - western common sense and 'our' view of the world! There are those Christian scholars who have stated Mary was about 11-14 years of age when she was 'betrothed' to Joseph and had her baby which the scriptures call Jesus - the Son of God! Remember he was born in a Arab dominated world and their culture (I've been able to visit on many occasions over the years) is so totally different to our own. In fact, I'm currentrly supervjsing a doctoral thesis on how western HRM practices can (or cannot) be assimilated into Arab culture. Not until recently did I realize that Arab children are not taught 'number' (mathematics/math!) as such! I don't think notions of pedophilia, per se, existed in the Arab mind at the time. If they did, we'd be thinking of much younger children. Alright, you can argue how much younger can you get than 9! Nothing much removed from what happened in 15th, 16th and 17the century Europe! Children of the great households of Europe were 'betrothed' to the childredn of other great families at 9 and 10. Indeed, Europeans saw children as 'small adults'. Look at many of the paintings of the period. Children are dressed as mini-adults in adult clothing. I think we have to approach the world's religions in the same way we have to approach Christianity. Whenever I visit the US and watch the many and varied religious TV boradcasts I sit there amazed, wondering how anyone can be taken in by much of the rubbish that is spouted about God, the bible, etc. The ministers all list endless accredited degrees but they have been educated in their own denomination's way of looking at the world and the bible - more often than not 'skewed' - there is nothing scholarly or academic about it. I've also noticed (have you?) they all seem to know what God wants and thinks! This stated, this is no less true in the UK. You guys in the USA just have more of it!

One final thought (brief) thought. Shoudl we not be more gentle on certain non-accredited degree instituitions? I've read earlier a comment by someone that if the term 'credit for life experience/work experience' is used in advertising then aninstitution is likely to be a degree mill! I don't go along with that view, it may be more true in the US than elsewhere and I've found (in 25 minutes of searching UK university web sites) the phrase used by 16 UK degree granting institutions! I can assure you they are not degree mills!

telfax

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by North
This has something of a distance learning connection in the Dr. Jerry Vines is a Th.D. graduate of Luther Rice Seminary. He is in the news this week for an address at the Southern Baptist convention in which he called the prophet Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile (consumated marriage to a nine year old). Dr. Vines was quoting a couple of PhD professors who are converts from Islam. The whole thing apparently upset some muslim groups. Dr. Vines is pastor of a 25,000 member Church.

There was an interesting discussion of it on Hannity & Colmes where Jerry Falwell discussed the issue with Hannity & Colmes.

North

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With the current (at least here in US) expose of RC priests and protestant ministers too messing up kids' lives through sexual misconduct, I think "representatives "of Christianity might first be pulling out some beams from the "church's eye" rather than criticising someone dead now nearly 1400 years!

[telfax]

Yes, I totally agree.

telfax

Originally posted by Bill Grover

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With the current (at least here in US) expose of RC priests and protestant ministers too messing up kids' lives through sexual misconduct, I think "representatives "of Christianity might first be pulling out some beams from the "church's eye" rather than criticising someone dead now nearly 1400 years!

I certainly agree that Christianity is not without it's own problematic members. I also think the terminology used by Dr. Vines was inflammatory (even if he got it from a couple of former Muslim PhD's). It would have been far better to have simply stuck to the fact (I realize it is not necessarily a fact) of the alleged marriage and sex with what today would have been considered an underage child.

However Bill, your comparison is not necessarily on the same level. Dr. Vines was not saying Christianity has been without it's problematic adherents whereas all Muslim's are x. He was making a statement about the alleged character/lifestyle of the founder of the Islamic faith. That shall have to stand on it's own for debate. I think the remarks are probably (even if true) ill timed. It is also unfortunate that he is not willing to defend his remarks after making them, nor meet with any of the groups concerned about relations. As I said I think if he had stuck to alleged statements of fact rather than value loaded terminology in a sensitive situation he would have been better off. Then we have what amounts to an academic exercise. Nonetheless, this is America and people have the right to state their point of view.

North

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by North


I certainly agree that Christianity is not without it's own problematic members. I also think the terminology used by Dr. Vines was inflammatory (even if he got it from a couple of former Muslim PhD's). It would have been far better to have simply stuck to the fact (I realize it is not necessarily a fact) of the alleged marriage and sex with what today would have been considered an underage child.

However Bill, your comparison is not necessarily on the same level. Dr. Vines was not saying Christianity has been without it's problematic adherents whereas all Muslim's are x. He was making a statement about the alleged character/lifestyle of the founder of the Islamic faith. That shall have to stand on it's own for debate. I think the remarks are probably (even if true) ill timed. It is also unfortunate that he is not willing to defend his remarks after making them, nor meet with any of the groups concerned about relations. As I said I think if he had stuck to alleged statements of fact rather than value loaded terminology in a sensitive situation he would have been better off. Then we have what amounts to an academic exercise. Nonetheless, this is America and people have the right to state their point of view.

North

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi North

I have the disadvantage of not having seen the programs to which you refer. Also, you are correct that my comparison is not equal in that in one case we are speaking of the founder of a religion and in the other of ( merely) leaders of a religion. However besides those leaders representing me in a way, these have the constraints of a modern , supposedly enlightened society which has laws to protect those innocents and supposedly ( by me)they represent a religion and a Church which condemn such acts and supposedly (by me) those church leaders who are sorely tempted in this manner have received a Spirit who helps us in our trials. Consequently ( though I know some of what I say is assumption and not proven) I feel even more valid purpose exists to purge out any evil done by these and to prevent any potential future travesties rather than belabour the issue of what the Islamic prophet may have done 1400 years ago!

[Tom Head]

Originally posted by North
I certainly agree that Christianity is not without it's own problematic members. I also think the terminology used by Dr. Vines was inflammatory (even if he got it from a couple of former Muslim PhD's).

Well, sort of; Unveiling Islam was written by Ergun Mahmet Caner (Th.D., University of South Africa[!]) and Emir Fethi Caner (Ph.D., University of Texas); both are Baptist theologians, and neither are listed as holding any advanced credentials in Islamic studies. Their academic credibility as Islamic scholars is about the same as yours and mine would be if we got together and wrote the same book; the only advantage they seem to have is that they were raised as Muslims and have Arab names. I haven't actually read their book, but it isn't advertised as a scholarly study of Islam; its blurb reads "With a basic knowledge of Islam in place, the authors then present a practical strategy Christians can use to open a productive dialogue with Muslims." (I would like to see an official statement from E.F. or E.M. Caner that clarifies whether or not calling Muhammad a "demon-possessed pedophile" qualifies as "[opening] productive dialogue.")


Cheers,

Originally posted by Tom Head

Well, sort of; Unveiling Islam was written by Ergun Mahmet Caner (Th.D., University of South Africa[!]) and Emir Fethi Caner (Ph.D., University of Texas); both are Baptist theologians, and neither are listed as holding any advanced credentials in Islamic studies. Their academic credibility as Islamic scholars is about the same as yours and mine would be if we got together and wrote the same book; the only advantage they seem to have is that they were raised as Muslims and have Arab names. I haven't actually read their book, but it isn't advertised as a scholarly study of Islam; its blurb reads "With a basic knowledge of Islam in place, the authors then present a practical strategy Christians can use to open a productive dialogue with Muslims." (I would like to see an official statement from E.F. or E.M. Caner that clarifies whether or not calling Muhammad a "demon-possessed pedophile" qualifies as "[opening] productive dialogue.")


Cheers,

Actually, I think I heard Dr. Caner speak at a Southern Baptist Church. He is relatively young and has a terrific sense of humour. I think he is a prof at Criswell College (?) I appreciate your digging the names of the profs up.

At any rate, your point is well taken that although he may be a bright Christian scholar this does not necessarily have anything to do with his scholastic ability as far as Islam goes. Truly, your average pew goer in a mainline liberal church would not likely be able to articulate the beliefs of Christianty much less quote scripture. So, I would not necessarily look to a book by such a person as a definitive work.

As I say, even if the issue with Mohammed is true there are somewhat more academic terms with which to place the subject in without making it quite so inflammatory. I also think Dr. Vines ought to stand up and defend his assertions. We can say this is an academic assertion about the lifestyle of the founder of a particular religion without making it any more insulting than the simple academic assertion. In other words for example we can say a particular religious founder *did not accurately represent x* which sounds much better than saying a particular religious
founder *is a religious charlatan who grossly lied*. Big difference in the way it sounds. This often happens when Christians debate with Mormons and end up being insulting. James White of Alpha & Omega ministries made this point when he took some Christians to task who were standing on a sidewalk yelling at Mormons. One Mormon thanked James for at least attempting to understand and accurately represent what he believed. These *Christians* who were screaming at the Mormons were certainly not winning converts by their behavior even if they were asserting truths.

North