Non-RA Ph.D. in Theology: Pro's and Con's ???

What are the pro's and con's of the following scenario:

A guy has a RA bachelor's, master's and professional doctorate--all in pastoral ministries, which will meet his professional objectives present and future. He does not plan to pursue a full-time faculty position--which of course could be obtained with the professional doctorate if the field of teaching was pastoral ministries. He then earns a Ph.D. (60 hours) from a school which is not RA, but has a substantive program which requires legitimate levels of course work and a dissertation.

[Gert Potgieter]

Assuming he is interested in the "substantive program which requires legitimate levels of course work and a dissertation" rather than the credential per se, this sounds fine to me.

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris
What are the pro's and con's of the following scenario:

A guy has a RA bachelor's, master's and professional doctorate--all in pastoral ministries, which will meet his professional objectives present and future. He does not plan to pursue a full-time faculty position--which of course could be obtained with the professional doctorate if the field of teaching was pastoral ministries. He then earns a Ph.D. (60 hours) from a school which is not RA, but has a substantive program which requires legitimate levels of course work and a dissertation.

I'd say that it all depends on why this hypothetical Russell-like student wants to study in the first place.

OK, he doesn't *need* the degree for professional reasons, but would it add anything professionally? Would the title Ph.D. add credibility, and if so, among whom? Parishoners? Other clergymen? Professors?

There are going to be some very subtle questions of reputation operating here, particularly among the latter two groups.

Will a non-accredited degree be a plus, be neutral, or stain its holder as a flake who isn't to be taken seriously?

As I've said before, I think that it depends on the reputation of the school among the community in which you plan to use the degree. But the response may be neutral or even negative in the wider community that isn't acquainted with the school and just knows it as obscure and unaccredited.

There is another possibility: a student who just wants to study for his/her own benefit, and who never intends to use the degree title at all. After all, when we earn our degrees we don't (or shouldn't) stop reading or staying current with our fields. That means that we are gonna keep studying, albeit at a less intense speed, whether or not we have a degree objective. And that sort of study needn't be isolated reading in a library. We can continue to take classes of all sorts, even doctoral level graduate courses if we qualify for them.

So I'd say that if your hypothetical student just loves theology and wants to continue studying it for his own edification, a non-accredited school might be fine. That's assuming that it turns out to be academically credible and that it gives the student what he or she wants.

Of course, you could take individual RA classes too, which might be more useful if your plans ever change. But since there are usually strict limits on how many classes can be transferred into graduate programs, and since you might be interested in exploring a variety of widely ranging issues that don't fit into a coherent degree syllabus, there might not be a whole lot of reason to restrict yourself to RA courses.

Then there is the dissertation. If you don't have a degree objective, why would you want to subject yourself to writing a dissertation? It seems pointless to me.

Obviously there is the desire to do some real creative scholarly work, to contribute something to your field. But if that's your motivation, would it make more sense to write a dissertation that nobody will ever read at an obscure non-accredited school, or to devote the same time and energy to writing several publishable papers instead?

I really don't know, Russell. I'm struggling with this issue too. Although my opinion changes from day to day, today's is that there is no point in me pursuing a doctorate if my only reason for doing so is ego aggrandizement. But there is plenty of reason to keep on with a slow but steady program of life-long continuing education for my own intellectual and spiritual growth. That makes me separate the idea of education from the idea of having a degree objective. And that in turn makes non-accredited alternatives a lot more attractive.

Originally posted by BillDayson
I'm struggling with this issue too.

Good insights, Bill. Thanks for your response.

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris
What are the pro's and con's of the following scenario:

A guy has a RA bachelor's, master's and professional doctorate--all in pastoral ministries, which will meet his professional objectives present and future. He does not plan to pursue a full-time faculty position--which of course could be obtained with the professional doctorate if the field of teaching was pastoral ministries. He then earns a Ph.D. (60 hours) from a school which is not RA, but has a substantive program which requires legitimate levels of course work and a dissertation.

==============================================

Russell:

So are you saying (by "legitimate") that some unaccredited PhD programs in Religion are the equivalent of the RA ? But if this is your view, and I know you to be much informed on this, then why would this equivalency not to be more observed by the many?

I recall just a few months back being shown the "error" of my thinking by seasoned posters here when I opined that I thought my work in a certain non RA school equaled my RA experience.

Curiously , Unizul does not take the DMin as a qualification to prof in the capacity of "accredited senior lecturer." But in the USA, DMins regularly teach everything from Greek Exegesis to Philosophy of Religion! (I see no prob with teaching "Pastoral Theology w-DMin, but question the others except at undergrad level).

I guess my curiosity now is peaked by the prospect of one with an accredited DMin toying with the notion of an unaccredited PhD. (you of course did not mention which discipline). I can see no reason for it, but, then, you've revealed none!

Part of the motivation for my changing from nonRA to GAAP for the doc (and ThM is equiv of DMIn) is the conviction that one in my circumstance needs to be respectable in all areas. Since I so dismally fail that goal in most ways, I hope to at least reach that goal in Education.

[Bill Grover]

You said in "theology".(sorry!)Then, I really question going non RA. :
1) uncertain future, teaching possible'
2) less likely non RA=RA work in this very academic discipline
3) were one to have accredited MDiv then possible to enter RA PhD in theology were that program to have included fair amount of Bible, languages,theology. If 'thesis" done in MDiv then ,eg, So Africa an option. Unizul offers DPhil in biblical studies, eg!

Originally posted by Bill Grover
are you saying (by "legitimate") that some unaccredited PhD programs in Religion are the equivalent of the RA ? But if this is your view, and I know you to be much informed on this, then why would this equivalency not to be more observed by the many?

Several observations, Bill.

1. It is my personal take that there are indeed some non-RA Ph.D. programs which are as rigorous as an RA Ph.D.--although the number of such programs is probably very very few. I would think a Bob Jones Ph.D. would be as rigorous as the RA route. This is a subjective observation and I stand to be corrected if this isn't the case.

2. Equivalent of the RA: If one aligned ten different RA Ph.D. programs, while there would be a minimal standard, each would be different in terms of specific requirements. On a scale of 1-10, each would fall somewhere within the parameters, however, not all would rate a ten. Some may rate a two. Some would require languages, others would not; some would require a 300 page dissertation, others a 450 page diss.; some would require the candidate to use 150 sources, others may only require 50--yet all are RA. So I think equivalency is somewhat relative once one moves beyond the minimal standard.

3. Equivalency observed by the many: RA remains the "gold standard" in the US. If one is going to pursue a career in teaching, etc., then one should go "RA all the way." The many, being RA, will tend to observe RA.

4. However, for those who do not necessarily need the RA degree, there are a few solid options available. Even Jason Baker states that in the case of a pastor, whose denomination/fellowship recognizes certain non-RA degree programs, this may be a viable option. Of course he isn't referring to, nor am I, degree mill type programs--but solid substantive programs which require a regimen of work appropriate to the specific degree level.

This was my four point outline, now for the conclusion of this evening's sermon.

All things being equal, if it is within one's realm of possibility to go the RA route my encouragement is to do so. But as many on this forum have said (e.g., Bear, Levicoff, etc.), there are exceptions to every rule.

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[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris


Several observations, Bill.

1. It is my personal take that there are indeed some non-RA Ph.D. programs which are as rigorous as an RA Ph.D.--although the number of such programs is probably very very few. I would think a Bob Jones Ph.D. would be as rigorous as the RA route. This is a subjective observation and I stand to be corrected if this isn't the case.

2. Equivalent of the RA: If one aligned ten different RA Ph.D. programs, while there would be a minimal standard, each would be different in terms of specific requirements. On a scale of 1-10, each would fall somewhere within the parameters, however, not all would rate a ten. Some may rate a two. Some would require languages, others would not; some would require a 300 page dissertation, others a 450 page diss.; some would require the candidate to use 150 sources, others may only require 50--yet all are RA. So I think equivalency is somewhat relative once one moves beyond the minimal standard.

3. Equivalency observed by the many: RA remains the "gold standard" in the US. If one is going to pursue a career in teaching, etc., then one should go "RA all the way." The many, being RA, will tend to observe RA.

4. However, for those who do not necessarily need the RA degree, there are a few solid options available. Even Jason Baker states that in the case of a pastor, whose denomination/fellowship recognizes certain non-RA degree programs, this may be a viable option. Of course he isn't referring to, nor am I, degree mill type programs--but solid substantive programs which require a regimen of work appropriate to the specific degree level.

This was my four point outline, now for the conclusion of this evening's sermon.

All things being equal, if it is within one's realm of possibility to go the RA route my encouragement is to do so. But as many on this forum have said (e.g., Bear, Levicoff, etc.), there are exceptions to every rule.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Russell:

(1) I would not presume to correct you as to whether there are a few non accredited theological programs which equal accredited in rigor. But i would wonder, then, why these are not accredited. Were "secular" deemed devilish ,then why not opt for ATS ? If such conservatively staunch schools as DTS feels no pollution resulting from its affiliation with ATS then I wonder why BJU or others would? Such accreditational connection would seem to be of much benefit for grads. Do the few such schools in your or others'paradigm, I wonder, just not wish to thus benefit their students? Is this moral?

) As you say the quality of even accredited schools may vary widely. But is this not rather an argument for expecting more schools to be accredited rather than a reason for some being justifiably exempt from that status? Were the "bar" of accreditation really not that high then what prevents these from hurdling it?

3) How would one be assured that teaching is not in ones future? Were one to have a Phd perhaps he would be invited to use it. If all one wishes to do is know theology, why not work on his own? Especially would this seem appropriate to one who already has the DMin.Why acquire a PhD which represents only to those of his own group any significant accomplishment and which is ever subject to question? If it is for personal reasons only, then why is a degree necessary at all? But to have a PhD suggests to many the ability and opportunity and even the ambition to teach. Somehow it peculiarly resonates when one has achieved the highest academic degree but plans to do nothing with it. It sort of parallels one who acquired an MD so that he could cure only himself. It is like having the DMin so he can minister to himself, is it not?

(4) Sure some denominations accept docs from their own schools. The KJV only group is an example. This, of course, in this case, shows the purpose to be not just personal! But what if the degreed one changes denominations? And further, are we only to have the respect of our own immediate group? Should we not do what we can to have -even educationally - everything above board in the eyes of as many as possible? Sure we never will please all. DL degrees in the eyes of some are less than BM. But wereDL only available, then why not at least opt for accreditation and by that garner the wider respect.

Blessings on all who love his Word and my respect to all who seek or have attained the grad degree.

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Originally posted by Bill Grover

==============================================
Part of the motivation for my changing from nonRA to GAAP for the doc (and ThM is equiv of DMIn) is the conviction that one in my circumstance needs to be respectable in all areas.

Greetings Bill,

Glad to see you are progressing towards your goal. I thought a comment was in order here about the ThM being equivalent to the D.Min. I had never heard this assertion before. According to the US Department of Education and National Science Foundation, the D.Min is equivalent to the PhD (although the obvious differences are noted). In other words the D.Min. is a doctorate in the same category as PhD, DBA and the raft of other titles listed. ThM is not mentioned in the same category. Maybe a ThM is more like a LLM.

http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/us/research-doctorate.html


Also, with regard to BJU. I have no question their degree programs are equivalent to any secular school. That is why their grads are able to get in to some of the finest schools in the US. BJU has an interesting pamphlet explaining why they will not go for *ANY* accreditation be it secular or religious. Their fear of compromise on any doctrinal issue is so great that they won't considers ATS, TRACS, etc. The pamphlet was helpful in understanding their position because I thought "c'mon guys for crying what is wrong with conservative Christian accreditation".

Good luck Bill!

North

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by North


Greetings Bill,

Glad to see you are progressing towards your goal. I thought a comment was in order here about the ThM being equivalent to the D.Min. I had never heard this assertion before. According to the US Department of Education and National Science Foundation, the D.Min is equivalent to the PhD (although the obvious differences are noted). In other words the D.Min. is a doctorate in the same category as PhD, DBA and the raft of other titles listed. ThM is not mentioned in the same category. Maybe a ThM is more like a LLM.

http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/us/research-doctorate.html


Also, with regard to BJU. I have no question their degree programs are equivalent to any secular school. That is why their grads are able to get in to some of the finest schools in the US. BJU has an interesting pamphlet explaining why they will not go for *ANY* accreditation be it secular or religious. Their fear of compromise on any doctrinal issue is so great that they won't considers ATS, TRACS, etc. The pamphlet was helpful in understanding their position because I thought "c'mon guys for crying what is wrong with conservative Christian accreditation".

Good luck Bill!

North

************************************************** **Hello North

Thankyou for your good wishes.

I looked at your reference which classified the DMin with the PhD as a research doctorate and the ThM with the MAs. So, how could I assume the two are equivalent? Not of course in focus or in content but in other ways. I'd suggest anyone seeking to compare look at: westernseminary-programs. Here these data are available.

Prerequisites to entering both are similar. Accredited BA, plus(3 yr) MDiv. So, the equivalent of seven years of undergrad and grad work before beginning either the DMin or the Thm are required! In that way the two are alike! Also, both require a 3.0 in grad work. However whereas the DMin requires ministerial experience, the thM requires 10 hours of Greek and eight of hebrew plus theology etc. The thM applicant also specifically must evince research and writing aptitudes. Even a casual glance will indicate that the Thm easily equals the Dmin as far as academic prerequisites.

At western the Dmin is 30 hours but the Thm is 25. But one is allowed up to three years to finish the ThM thesis and pass comprehensive exams because the expectations are high!. were you to read the program descriptions you would see that the dmin is practically oriented whereas the thM is research oriented.

As said, the ThM has similar entrance requirements except it specifies languages and similar program length except it is more academically focused. If one still wishes to argue that the Dmin =the PhD more closely than the thm well then, so be it

In regard to BJU and its grads being able to enter any other school, that is not precisely the issue. the issue concerns the utility of the PhD from BJU. are you saying that because the BA at BJU has the utility of the BA from RA schools, that, therefore, so does the PhD? Can you name three profs at RA schools of theology which teach NT, OT, or theology having only a doc from BJU? North , I don't know. there may be. Do you know of three?

I do not want to hurt any feelings here!

Originally posted by Bill Grover
Hello North

Thankyou for your good wishes.

I looked at your reference which classified the DMin with the PhD as a research doctorate and the ThM with the MAs. So, how could I assume the two are equivalent? Not of course in focus or in content but in other ways. I'd suggest anyone seeking to compare look at: westernseminary-programs. Here these data are available.

Snipped

As said, the ThM has similar entrance requirements except it specifies languages and similar program length except it is more academically focused. If one still wishes to argue that the Dmin =the PhD more closely than the thm well then, so be it

In regard to BJU and its grads being able to enter any other school, that is not precisely the issue. the issue concerns the utility of the PhD from BJU. are you saying that because the BA at BJU has the utility of the BA from RA schools, that, therefore, so does the PhD? Can you name three profs at RA schools of theology which teach NT, OT, or theology having only a doc from BJU? North , I don't know. there may be. Do you know of three?

I do not want to hurt any feelings here!

Greetings Bill,

You are not hurting my feelings

First, as to the D.Min./ThM issue. I appreciate your information *BUT* I will go ahead and believe the US Department of Education and National Science Foundation over Western. Also, you may be interested to look at the Dallas Theological Seminary (the Evangelical Harvard) site under Faculty. First you will notice that there are at least a couple of faculty with ThM who did them after a B.A. (in one case after an MABS) and not after an M.Div. On top of that there are at least a couple who have D.Min or D.Miss listed as their top degree after the ThM. (which was completed after an undergraduate degree). Again, I defer to the US DoE/NFS in this matter. In this case the DTS site also supports the US DoE/NSF interpretation. A D.Min trumps a Th.M

http://www.dts.edu/engine.cfm?a=41&b...choice=1&iti=1

http://www.dts.edu/engine.cfm?a=41&b...tchoice=1&iti=
1

As for BJU, I do not have time at the moment to conduct an extensive search. You could always contact BJU and ask where their PhD grads are teaching. The only one I know off the top of my head is Knox Theological Seminary (Dr. Reymond)

http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospect...y/fulltime.asp

North

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by North


Greetings Bill,

You are not hurting my feelings

First, as to the D.Min./ThM issue. I appreciate your information *BUT* I will go ahead and believe the US Department of Education and National Science Foundation over Western. Also, you may be interested to look at the Dallas Theological Seminary (the Evangelical Harvard) site under Faculty. First you will notice that there are at least a couple of faculty with ThM who did them after a B.A. (in one case after an MABS) and not after an M.Div. On top of that there are at least a couple who have D.Min or D.Miss listed as their top degree after the ThM. (which was completed after an undergraduate degree). Again, I defer to the US DoE/NFS in this matter. In this case the DTS site also supports the US DoE/NSF interpretation. A D.Min trumps a Th.M

http://www.dts.edu/engine.cfm?a=41&b...choice=1&iti=1

http://www.dts.edu/engine.cfm?a=41&b...tchoice=1&iti=
1

As for BJU, I do not have time at the moment to conduct an extensive search. You could always contact BJU and ask where their PhD grads are teaching. The only one I know off the top of my head is Knox Theological Seminary (Dr. Reymond)

http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospect...y/fulltime.asp

North

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi again North

Thanks for the Dallas TS reference. I don't believe you have a handle on that data from that site.

First were you to look at the degrees offered, you would see that DTS offers NO Mdiv. Consequently their candidates do a FOUR year ThM. this equals the MDiv prerequisite.

Second, i'm trying to fathom your logic that if a DMin is earned after a thM it "trumps" the ThM. So, does Glenn's or sedwick's MA trump their ThM? Does Bryan's Med trump his thM? Does Ibacks MLS trump his thM? Is your logic because DTS lists degrees according to dates received that therefore a chronological later dates =a trump???? How about another criterion for "trumping"?

Third using DTS as the Evangelical Harvard ( ) let's compare those teaching with the DMin as highest earned degree with those teaching at DTS with the ThM as highest..hmmm? Now I went through the faculty roster quickly but i THINK in the former category only Cecil teaches with the DMin. But in the former we have, eg, Hendricks, Lane, and Regier (plus guys like the registrar etc) teaching at the EVANGELICAL HARVARD with the THM ONLY as the highest degree earned!!! Hmmm. Looks like the ThM trumps the DMin here too!

As far as your government source who are Western and DTS to argue with the Government which always gets everything right...right?

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Originally posted by Bill Grover
Looks like the ThM trumps the DMin

Sniff, Sniff!!!!!!!

Your Th.M. is bigger and better than my D.Min., I just can't go on living.

Sniff, Sniff!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Bill Grover

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi again North

Thanks for the Dallas TS reference. I don't believe you have a handle on that data from that site.

First were you to look at the degrees offered, you would see that DTS offers NO Mdiv. Consequently their candidates do a FOUR year ThM. this equals the MDiv prerequisite.

Second, i'm trying to fathom your logic that if a DMin is earned after a thM it "trumps" the ThM. So, does Glenn's or sedwick's MA trump their ThM? Does Bryan's Med trump his thM? Does Ibacks MLS trump his thM? Is your logic because DTS lists degrees according to dates received that therefore a chronological later dates =a trump???? How about another criterion for "trumping"?

Third using DTS as the Evangelical Harvard ( ) let's compare those teaching with the DMin as highest earned degree with those teaching at DTS with the ThM as highest..hmmm? Now I went through the faculty roster quickly but i THINK in the former category only Cecil teaches with the DMin. But in the former we have, eg, Hendricks, Lane, and Regier (plus guys like the registrar etc) teaching at the EVANGELICAL HARVARD with the THM ONLY as the highest degree earned!!! Hmmm. Looks like the ThM trumps the DMin here too!

As far as your government source who are Western and DTS to argue with the Government which always gets everything right...right?

The fact is that the D.Min is a doctorate and the ThM is NOT, that is why it is a Masters degree The D.Min. is listed above the other degrees because it is higher as is the D.Miss also listed on the DTS site.

By the way I did not come up with the notion of calling DTS the Evangelical Harvard. That has been ciruclated for some time.

Yes, I think the National Science Foundation & US DoE site (& DTS)do have value above Western's critieria.

North

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[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris


Sniff, Sniff!!!!!!!

Your Th.M. is bigger and better than my D.Min., I just can't go on living.

Sniff, Sniff!!!!!!!

==============================================

Page three shows that the occasion for this direction of the thread was not to brag.

Still I'm glad you finally came to your senses!

I should also add the following (inserted).

The fact is that the D.Min is a doctorate and the ThM is NOT, that is why it is a Masters degree The D.Min. is listed above the other degrees because it is higher as is the D.Miss also listed on the DTS site.

The following are the requirements for entry into the D.Min at DTS. Note it does not say that if you have a Th.M do not bother because you already have a doctorate. Or if you have a Th.M. from other seminaries you have already met the DTS requiremnt. The M.Div or the ThM is an admission requirement for the D.Min (ie sub degree below the D.Min).

****hold the Master of Divinity or Master of Theology degree, or have academic preparation equivalent to the M.Div. degree. Credits taken toward the M.Div. or M.Div. equivalence must cover the breadth of M.Div. curriculum consistent with Dallas Seminary's curriculum and commitment to Scripture as prescribed by the Doctor of Ministry Office and Registrar's Office. Deficiency credits may be earned at Dallas Seminary, its extension centers, through external studies programs, or other accredited institutions.***

By the way I did not come up with the notion of calling DTS the Evangelical Harvard. That has been ciruclated for some time.

Yes, I think the National Science Foundation & US DoE site (& DTS) do have value above Western's critieria. In fact they make common sense as the above indicates.

Respectfully, your ThM is not equivalent of a D.Min. Your D.Th will be (in fact considered a higher doctorate). Your ThM is a fine degree and wonderful qualification but it is not a doctorate. If you like you can get someone to call you Master being that you have a super Masters degree

North

[Bill Grover]

[quote]Originally posted by North
[b]I should also add the following (inserted).

The fact is that the D.Min is a doctorate and the ThM is NOT,
=======================================
And The MDiv used to be (pre 60s)called the( 7 yrs) BD..then it was a bachelors degree. And one can enter the D.C. degree program with two years of college but it equals the DMin because both are doctorates! Hokey Dokey! Rather, academic programs are equivalent not by name but by requisites!




that is why it is a Masters degree The D.Min. is listed above the other degrees because it is higher as is the D.Miss also listed on the DTS site.
==========================================
As said, degrees at DTS are listed according to date received.

Billy and Northy,

Now boys, put those toys (Th.M. Truck, D.Min. Dozer) away and play nicely. Come on in and get a bowl of alphabet soup, then you can design your own degrees.

Mother

[Bill Grover]

Originally posted by Russell A. Morris
Billy and Northy,

Now boys, put those toys (Th.M. Truck, D.Min. Dozer) away and play nicely. Come on in and get a bowl of alphabet soup, then you can design your own degrees.

Mother

=============================================

OK, I'll shake if North will!

Originally posted by Bill Grover
And The MDiv used to be (pre 60s)called the( 7 yrs) BD..then it was a bachelors degree. And one can enter the D.C. degree program with two years of college but it equals the DMin because both are doctorates! Hokey Dokey! Rather, academic programs are equivalent not by name but by requisites!

snipped

As said, degrees at DTS are listed according to date received.

Sighhhhhhhh!

I NEVER have argued for equivalency based on title alone. That is why I gave you the US Dept of Ed/National Science Foundation Site with degrees equivalent to the PhD (on which the D.Min was listed). I suggest you contact both entities and let them know that they left your ThM off the list. Maybe there is time to fix the injustice. There is another link accessible from the site where you will see a list of degrees which have doctorate in the title and are not doctorates (DC, MD, JD etc.).

The entrance requirements for DTS D.Min program is an M.Div *or* ThM. No exception is made for the extra Masters level study. The implication is that the ThM is not equivalent to the D.Min or you would not need it or the M.Div to gain admission.

I can see we are going to have a situation arise not unlike that with Walston's dissertation. So, you are correct Bill. Russell's RA doctorate *is* equivalent to your Th.M degree. Oh, the cosmic injustice of it all that it was not simply made a doctorate. If it makes you feel better then go for it Bill. Tell Western that they issued you the wrong degree. You seem to be trying to rationalize equivalency. I am also not sure why you felt the need to assert that your ThM was equivalent to Russell's RA doctorate. No one (certainly not I) thinks any less of you because you do not have a doctorate and I am sure you will earn one at UNIZUL with your tenacity and skill.

North