Shades of John Gray

[decimon]

Via InstaPundit:

Dr. Gray threatens legal action against blogger for deeming Gray a fraud on the basis of his degrees.

Gavin's Blog

And commenter Colonel Ribby Knish seems to have a really dim view of Gray.

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[George Brown]

I don't seem to be able to find the actual transcript, but the quotes outlined in the letter of threat are factually true. His MA and PhD did come from unaccredited institutions. So where is the problem? It's not as if he has called Columbia Pacific and Maharishi fake or bogus. Where he has allegedly called him a fraud, well that is a dangerous allegation...

Cheers,

George

[decimon]

Originally posted by George Brown
I don't seem to be able to find the actual transcript, but the quotes outlined in the letter of threat are factually true. His MA and PhD did come from unaccredited institutions. So where is the problem? It's not as if he has called Columbia Pacific and Maharishi fake or bogus. Where he has allegedly called him a fraud, well that is a dangerous allegation...

Cheers,

George

The issue is apparently more than the degrees per se:

According to Gray's official web site (http://www.marsvenus.com), "Dr. Gray is a Certified Family Therapist, Consulting Editor of the Family Journal, a member of the Distinguished Advisory Board of the International Association of Marriage and Family Counselors, and a member of the American Counseling Association." Alas, all those official, credential-building associations the doctor belongs to require actual, accredited graduate degrees as a condition of membership, so I expect he'll be getting the boot from them soon. Branscum

[BillDayson]

I have no particular problems with John Gray.

The guy is a popular psychology author. I haven't read any of his books, but by all accounts they are interesting and entertaining.

I don't have any problem with the CA-approved psych schools either. Some of them, like California Graduate Institute and Ryokan, are actually pretty good. Their graduates' success rate on the state psychology board exams equals some regionally accredited schools.

CGI entertained a site visit from WASC just last week. If the school is a joke now, and all of its graduates are frauds, will all that suddenly change if CGI is granted candidacy?

Frankly, I take a much dimmer view of the source of this little jihad against Gray, the 'Cultnews' website.

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[Bruce]

Originally posted by decimon
Dr. Gray threatens legal action against blogger for deeming Gray a fraud on the basis of his degrees.

The very fact that Gray has hired an attorney to look into this is almost an admission that his CPU degree is worthy of further investigation.

If someone published something about me that questioned any of my degrees, I would simply laugh and let the investigation run its course.

I have the feeling that John Gray doesn't want to let that happen.

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[amused]

The Ph.D. held by another best selling author, Caroline Myss, comes from Greenwich University!

Perhaps if we did further digging, we may find that many best selling authors hold unaccredited degrees!

And maybe these people may not follow the 'traditional' path in their writtings (and education!) but they do seem to be read by millions world wide!

[decimon]

Bill,

I also have not read Gray and have no original opinion of his work. This seemed to fit in well with the muckraking aspect of this board.

Bruce,

Yeah, I think most of us "go LEO" when someone appears to be covering up. And that backfires anyway.

This was asked by megablogger Glenn Reynolds (InstaPundit): "Is it really wise of John Gray, or his lawyers, to be calling attention to this stuff?"

Not if the thing then goes from little read Gavin to much read Reynolds.

[decimon]

Originally posted by amused
The Ph.D. held by another best selling author, Caroline Myss, comes from Greenwich University!

Perhaps if we did further digging, we may find that many best selling authors hold unaccredited degrees!

And maybe these people may not follow the 'traditional' path in their writtings (and education!) but they do seem to be read by millions world wide!

I wouldn't judge the worth of someone's writings on degrees held except where those degrees are offered as authority for the writings.

[Bill Huffman]

Originally posted by decimon

I wouldn't judge the worth of someone's writings on degrees held except where those degrees are offered as authority for the writings.

When one puts Ph.D. on the title page then one is offerring up the degree as proof of the authority of the author, IMHO.

[Rich Douglas]

Originally posted by decimon

I wouldn't judge the worth of someone's writings on degrees held except where those degrees are offered as authority for the writings.

Which Gray does. What we now know, IIRC, is that his undergraduate and master's degrees are fake, and that his Ph.D. comes from Columbia Pacific. Who's to say his research is any more reliable. (If, indeed, there is research underlying his books.)

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Rich Douglas
What we now know, IIRC, is that his undergraduate and master's degrees are fake, and that his Ph.D. comes from Columbia Pacific.

Doesn't Gray have his undergrad degree from Maharishi International University (now Maharishi University of Management)?

Not exactly mainstream, but it is RA and totally legitimate.

[Rich Douglas]

Originally posted by Bruce


Doesn't Gray have his undergrad degree from Maharishi International University (now Maharishi University of Management)?

Not exactly mainstream, but it is RA and totally legitimate.

That's what I used to think, too. But his degrees are from some unrecognized outfit in Switzerland affiliated with the Mahrishi movement. They're not from Maharishi University of Management (or MIU). See this link: About Gray

Originally posted by Rich Douglas
...Who's to say his research is any more reliable. (If, indeed, there is research underlying his books.)

As I've stated a few times on here regarding Gray, much of his work is based on the writing of liguistics expert, Dr. Deborah Tannen.

I contacted Tannen a few years ago (via email) and she was not pleased but said she was not going to worry about it, or something to that affect.

I read Tannen's books as each came out and when Gray's "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" book came out, I thought, "I've read this before."

[BillDayson]

Originally posted by Bruce
Doesn't Gray have his undergrad degree from Maharishi International University (now Maharishi University of Management)?

Not exactly mainstream, but it is RA and totally legitimate.

I seem to recall (and am too lazy to verify) that he got his bachelors degree from the European branch of MIU (in Switzerland?), which was never accredited to my knowledge. I don't know whether it still exists or whether efforts were subsequently concentrated on the American operation which did become regionally accredited.

Frankly, I don't see this as really any worse than graduating from Bob Jones University. Gray went on to study at a then-CA-approved university which had a pretty good reputation here in the Bay Area at the time, particularly among those who wanted to study 'alternative' subjects. If his bachelors wasn't accredited, he may have had little choice but to go the CA-approved route.

Then he bacame a best-selling author of popular psychology books. He doesn't claim to be a formal research scholar. He isn't treating patients.

I don't really see anything wrong with what he's doing and I actually kind of applaud him. I think that he's found a valid ethical use for non-traditional degrees. I like that.

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Originally posted by BillDayson
He doesn't claim to be a formal research scholar. He isn't treating patients......I think that he's found a valid ethical use for non-traditional degrees. I like that.

I concur with Bill's assessment.

[adireynolds]

Originally posted by Jimmy Clifton


As I've stated a few times on here regarding Gray, much of his work is based on the writing of liguistics expert, Dr. Deborah Tannen.

Ah, you beat me to it! I was going to mention the same thing. Dr. Tannen's work is great, IMHO. I've used her stuff in my communications classes for years. I've never read any of Gray's stuff, but from what I saw in the media, I figured it had to be based on Dr. Tannen.

[decimon]

Originally posted by BillDayson
I seem to recall (and am too lazy to verify) that he got his bachelors degree from the European branch of MIU (in Switzerland?), which was never accredited to my knowledge. I don't know whether it still exists or whether efforts were subsequently concentrated on the American operation which did become regionally accredited.

Frankly, I don't see this as really any worse than graduating from Bob Jones University. Gray went on to study at a then-CA-approved university which had a pretty good reputation here in the Bay Area at the time, particularly among those who wanted to study 'alternative' subjects. If his bachelors wasn't accredited, he may have had little choice but to go the CA-approved route.

Then he bacame a best-selling author of popular psychology books. He doesn't claim to be a formal research scholar. He isn't treating patients.

I don't really see anything wrong with what he's doing and I actually kind of applaud him. I think that he's found a valid ethical use for non-traditional degrees. I like that.

I think the question is how he has presented his university credentials to both his readers and to some professional organizations.

And Jimmy Clifton raises another issue. If he has, without attribution, made hay of Tannen's work then then we have, at best, a sleazy character to consider.

To Gray's lawyers: Sue Clifton.

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[Rob Coates]

An interesting thought came to mind regarding Gray. Since his books I would assume are being sold in Oregon, he appears to be breaking the law in Oregon since he is "using" his unaccredited doctorate. I'm betting the Oregon ODA won't be going after him though.

[Jeff Hampton]

Originally posted by amused
And maybe these people may not follow the 'traditional' path in their writtings (and education!) but they do seem to be read by millions world wide!

Mein Kampf was also read by millions of people worldwide. Mao's "Little Red Book" is the second best-selling book in the history of the world.

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[BillDayson]

If people are looking for controversy, I think that the source of this recent anti-Gray jihad is more questionable than the fact that a popular author has a CA-approved degree.

Here's something about 'Cultnews' that I wrote in an earlier thread:

********************

The link to something called "CultNews" is much more interesting.

It's the work of a gentleman named Rick Ross, who operates his own 'Ross Institute for the Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups and Movements.' Ross' own highest educational qualification is an Arizona high school diploma.

http://www.rickross.com/cv.html

Ross bills himself as "America's foremost cultbuster". He conducts "interventions" in which he harangues adult "cult members" about their religious beliefs over a three day period for some eight hours a day. On his ethics page he repudiates physically restraining "clients", but it's hard to imagine adherents of heterodox religious beliefs voluntarily agreeing to this kind of treatment.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/in...nterview2.html

Ross' use of the word 'cult' is disingenuous.

He gives us a dictionary definition of the word and acknowledges that the word's non-technical meaning is so vague that it could include just about anything. He proceeds to tell us that "cult apologists" argue that the word 'cult' is perjorative and should be replaced with the phrase 'new religious movements', apparently unaware that most academic religious studies scholars take that position. Ross summarily dismisses the idea and without any further discussion moves into a discussion of charismatic leaders, coercive persuasion and economic exploitation. (He doesn't tells us how 'coercive persuasion' differs from his own "interventions").

http://www.rickross.com/faq.html

But when it comes time to actually discuss cases, Ross is back using the word 'cult' to refer to pretty much anything that he doesn't personally like.

He tells us that "Relationship guru John Gray, author of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, is established seemingly as a permanent fixture in popular culture and has something of a cult following." That's clearly a very different use of the word 'cult'. It's ridiculous to equate a celebrity author with a charismatic religious leader, Gray practices no coercive persuasion that I can see, and the only economic exploitation taking place are book sales.

Gray is just a pop-psychology author whose books (I haven't read them) are by all accounts entertaining.

But Ross seems to me to be something else entirely. His specialty is scare-mongering and religious intolerance, and if his claims of being an advisor to law enforcement, the media and government have any truth, that becomes positively scary.

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